[00:00:13.170] – Speaker 2
Well, everyone, I’m Chris Tompkins, and welcome to the Shaping Our World podcast. My goal is to invite you into a conversation that will leave you more confident in understanding and inspiring the young people in your life. Each episode, we talk with leading experts and offer relevant resources to dive deeper into the world of our youth today. Today, we have Sofia Friesen on the show. Sofia is the Canadian Programs Director at Ally Global Foundation, a Canadian anti-human trafficking charity. It’s actually our second interview with Sofia because we think this is an important topic, and many parents likely aren’t even aware that the trafficking of children and youth is an issue here in Canada. It’s heavy stuff for sure, but we’re grateful for people like Sofia, who helped carry out Ally’s mission to prevent human trafficking and help survivors build healthy, independent lives. In addition to her role at Ally, Sofia has experience working in health care, working with a number of international NGOs, and researching issues related to gender-based violence and human trafficking. Sofia has a bachelor of science and nursing, a master’s of public health, and is currently pursuing her PhD in public health at Queen’s University with a focus on sex trafficking in Canada.
[00:01:27.120] – Speaker 2
Last time, we spoke about the factors that make kids vulnerable to trafficking and how we can work to prevent it. And this time, we’ll explore that a little further by looking at the prevention project, something that has been launched since our first conversation with Sofia. We’re also going to get Sofia’s opinions on how we can have those tough and even scary conversations about how to be aware of who our kids are interacting with online, how to keep them safe, and she’s even going to give us some red flags to keep us alert. There’s so much more in our conversation about this difficult and jarring topic that we’re going to unpack, so let’s just jump right into our conversation with Sofia Friesen. Welcome back to the show, Sofia. It’s so good to have you with us.
[00:02:16.020] – Speaker 1
Thank you. It’s so good to be back, Chris.
[00:02:18.150] – Speaker 2
And it’s great to be circling back and diving into a really important topic. And I’m looking forward to the conversation. But before we get in, help us get to know you a little bit better. What shaped your world when you were growing up? What are the biggest influences on you as a child or as a teenager?
[00:02:33.570] – Speaker 1
Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the GTA in Ontario, and I was shaped a lot by the relationships around me. Definitely the faith and youth group community that I was involved with was such a big influence on me and really created some lifelong friendships there. Even related to the work I’m doing today, that was such a grounding jumping off point for me. And as a kid, I was also really into music and the arts and all of that stuff. So I feel like those were some big things at the time for me. It was a little bit pre-social media days, so it feels a little bit different than some of the teens and kids I’m talking to these days.
[00:03:16.360] – Speaker 2
Yeah, I don’t want to go too much off topic, but I thought how this question might be different for a future generation in 5, 10 years, 15, 20 years when we say, What influenced you growing up? Because like you, I didn’t have those same social media things. So when you say friends, it was like out riding bikes and doing all that stuff. I think it’s a little bit different today. So let us get to know you a little bit more beyond your work. We’re going to talk about that in a minute, but tell us a little bit about your world, what shapes your world today, the arts, music. What are you into?
[00:03:50.340] – Speaker 1
I really love being outside. I lived in BC for almost 10 years, and I feel like that just gave me a whole new perspective on the outdoors and hiking and things like that. So whenever I get to spend my time being outside, that’s definitely what I love to do and consumes a lot of my outside of work time. I’ve also really gotten to baking lately. Oh, wow. Getting really intense into some cake designs, and it’s just been a fun creative outlet that way. But yeah, most of my time is spent here with family in the GTA with my husband, and that’s a little bit about me. I’m also doing my PhD at Queens, which is connected to work in that. It’s the same focus and area, which is very much a passion point for me. But that also consumes a lot of my time right now. Getting to be around staff and faculty and students who are in the academic space has been shaping me significantly over the last few years.
[00:04:47.040] – Speaker 2
Well, that nicely segues us into the work you’re doing. Tell us a little bit about your work.
[00:04:52.110] – Speaker 1
Yeah. I work for a charity called Alaa Global Foundation, which is based in Vancouver, but our team is spread out a little bit. Our mission at Alaa is to protect childhood, so specifically focusing on sexual exploitation and human trafficking. When these things try to take childhood away, we rally everything and everyone around needed to protect it. We do that internationally as well as here in Canada. My role is the Canadian Programme Director. I oversee all of our Canadian anti-exploitation and anti-human trafficking programmes. That includes our focus in Canada is really on the prevention side, even conversations like this, just empowering people to understand the issue, feel comfortable talking about it, feel empowered to do something about it and to keep their kids safe. We do that through a few different avenues. One of them that we’ll talk about a lot more throughout this talk is the Prevention Project, which I think last time we chatted, it was about to launch. It’s fun to get to talk about it now that it’s publicly available. But it’s an online hub of over 100 multimedia resources that we created in partnership with another organisation called the Exploitation Education Institute.
[00:06:09.820] – Speaker 1
There’s resources for kids starting in grades 3-5, 6-7, and 8-12 that really focus on the root causes of human trafficking and sexual exploitation, and doing that in a fun, light-hearted way with one-minute animated videos and things like that to just open up the conversation, make it feel a a little bit more relatable. Our goal is really to empower teachers, parents to use these resources to start these conversations with their kids. Then we also have another programme called Makuadotam, and we’ll We’ll talk about this in a little bit, but we know that Indigenous individuals are disproportionately affected by human trafficking in Canada. They make up 50% of cases, even though they make up only 4% of the population. We have two amazing Raising Indigenous women on our team who lead this Miquedotan programme, which is partnering with Indigenous communities currently working in Treaty 4 and 7 to train leaders in those communities, to lead culturally informed prevention programming at the local level to increase community safety. Then we also do some research. We’re also engaged in partnerships. Like I said, the prevention project was done in partnership with another org. We’re always looking for ways to be innovative in this space and not duplicate efforts that are already working really well.
[00:07:34.080] – Speaker 1
But instead, how do we link arms and tailor programmes that can hopefully be more effective and reach more people?
[00:07:40.800] – Speaker 2
I think that when you think about this conversation today, And even our show, we often cover broad topics that affect kids and young people. And every once in a while, we get into more specific topics, and we don’t always circle back to them. But we’re coming back to this because I think this This is an important topic to talk about and one that often doesn’t get light shined on it. And for us who put this podcast together, and for, I think, a lot of people that are listening, it’s fair to say that protecting young people is a really big part of what makes us passionate about investing in the next generation. I can only speak at Miskoka Woods. We have all these big dreams and hopes for the development part of what we do. But if we can’t keep kids safe, all the rest of that doesn’t matter. And so we put so much time and effort into protecting kids. And I think this is a really important topic. And I think it’s one that for most Canadian parents and North American parents, it’s one they probably don’t think about a lot. And that’s why I love that we’re circling back to bring this back on the radar.
[00:08:52.210] – Speaker 2
But before we get into all those details, I just wonder if you can share us a little more personally about what inspired you to dive into this topic about human trafficking prevention and research. What makes you passionate about it?
[00:09:07.080] – Speaker 1
I think it ties back to one of the first questions you asked about what shaped my world as a teenager. I was first exposed to the issue of human trafficking as a teenager through a couple of documentaries that had been shown to me, as well as a few events and fundraisers that we ran at our church. I think the easiest way I could describe it is that once I heard about this issue and really began to understand it, it just haunted me in a way. It was one of those things that I think I just heard it at this really formative time in my life, and it almost felt like a calling where it was if there’s anything I could do in my lifetime to combat this issue, then I want to see that through. That’s really been a bit of a grounding factor for me is just trying to stay soft to the issue because it’s a really tricky one to talk about when you say people don’t know a lot about it or talk a lot about it. A lot of that’s because it’s really uncomfortable and scary to talk about, but staying soft to it, staying connected with survivors and just being inspired by their strength has really kept me focused both in the work that I’m doing with Allie as well as in the research and just this commitment to we need to learn more to inform better what we’re doing.
[00:10:28.840] – Speaker 1
So that That’s been a thread since I was probably 15 years old. I think the more I’ve engaged in this space, the more I’ve really had to become comfortable with the tension of feeling immense despair for what’s happening and how this is affecting kids and youth and people, but then also the extreme opportunity of hope. Having seen real transformational healing happen and seeing prevention work really keeps me going in this space.
[00:11:04.410] – Speaker 2
I think there’s so many of us that don’t know, and so there’s a lack of information. Or as we start to get to know, it’s like we don’t want it to be true because it is- Totally. It’s overwhelming. Totally. And so it’s like you push it away. And then I do think there’s, and I’ll be honest, this is probably where I would land is, I know more about it. I can connect with the horrific nature of it. But I’m like, what can I do about it. It just seems like so beyond the scope of my influence. And so that’s why I love this conversation and love the more information we can help to get out there for parents and youth workers and teachers and people. And who are in this area to just shine some light on. I think it’s really helpful. And I do think it’s one of those things that is often an issue we think happens overseas, like far away. And I think that was one of the shocking things to me is, as I got to know a little bit more about what’s going on, is what’s going on in our country.
[00:12:05.260] – Speaker 2
You talked a little bit about that in the intro, but I’m wondering if you can give us a little more information to help us understand the reality of human trafficking, and particularly around kids and young people in Canada.
[00:12:17.460] – Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. That was a big part of my experience in learning about this issue as well, as I really did get introduced to it as in quotations, over there problem, something that happens elsewhere. And that’s where a lot of my attention was focused early in my volunteering and career. And it wasn’t until what you were sharing that I learned about what’s happening here that it really put that fire to address it, but it’s much more uncomfortable to address something that’s happening in your own backyard. And as your vision sharpens to be able to see these things in your own neighbourhood, even, it can be really, really jarring. Just as we get into some of the definitions and stats and all these things, I just want to acknowledge that, especially for parents and people who have youth and children in their lives that they care about, that this is heavy, and just feel free to pause as you need to and take space. I think it’s amazing that people who are listening are listening and are willing to engage in a heavy conversation like this. But there is hope, and we’ll get into some the practical stuff as well.
[00:13:31.150] – Speaker 1
But I just wanted to flag that, that it can be heavy, and I just want people to feel like they can take care of themselves during this conversation. But yeah, as we talk about human trafficking, I often find it helpful to talk about just centering on a definition, which is that human trafficking involves using force, fraud, or coercion to profit off of people’s bodies. Often this would be for sex or labour. You’ll hear terms like sex trafficking or labour trafficking. At Allie, we focus specifically on sex trafficking and other forms of sexual exploitation. In Canada, based on all of the stats we reference are an acknowledgement that our statistics are unfortunately really limited. But based on what we do know, sex trafficking comprises around 70% of reported human trafficking cases in Canada. We know that this is happening, and it’s the most common form that seeing. It tends to be a highly relational crime, which makes it really tricky to spot. I think a lot of people carry different images that come to mind, whether that’s informed by media or social media. I remember one of my early films I was exposed to was Taken, and that really informed my perception of human trafficking.
[00:14:52.090] – Speaker 1
But there’s a lot of myths that exist there that I think are helpful to address. One of them is that human trafficking and human smuggling are the thing or that they go hand in hand. And while borders can be crossed, they don’t need to be considered human trafficking. The majority of human trafficking in Canada, specifically sex trafficking, is happening within Canadian borders. Similarly, the majority of victims are not non-Canadians being trafficked into Canada, but 85% of known victims are Canadian citizens. So this is an issue happening in our country and affecting our population. There’s also a strong narrative around human trafficking, including kidnapping. But most of the cases we see in Canada are, again, that relational piece. They’re centred around coercion and deception. This process we could see with human trafficking is it starts with the at-risk phase or the targeting phase of recognising those risk factors and then grooming, so building a relationship with the child or youth to build trust and dependency for the purposes of eventually them and then isolating them from their… Whether that’s physically or more often we see that emotionally creating barriers between that child and their safety network and the people in their lives and creating that sense of isolation, and then the exploitation will begin.
[00:16:20.480] – Speaker 1
We call it a cycle because unfortunately, it tends to be quite cyclical in nature in that those who experience this are often then left at increased risk to be retrafficked or re-exploited. That’s a little bit about the issue. I think another helpful thing might be to talk about the difference between sex trafficking and sexual exploitation, because I think these terms can sometimes be used interchangeably. The easiest way to differentiate is that all sex trafficking is sexual exploitation, but not all sexual exploitation is sex trafficking. There are other forms of sexual exploitation that we could spend a whole other podcast talking about and that we address on the prevention project, like sex extortion or sugar dating or things like that. But sex trafficking would be considered sexual exploitation. We know, as it relates to young people, that 25% of known victims are Under the age of 18 and 70% are under the age of 25. The RCMP came out with this stat that over 90% of sexual exploitation is facilitated online, and children are being groom at an average age of 13 to 14 years old. I can’t anecdotally, in terms of the people we’re engaging with, we’re seeing this trend younger and younger and younger.
[00:17:35.360] – Speaker 2
I think it’s a great distinction because, like you said, we often think about movies like Taken, and it feels hard to imagine that that’s happening at a mass frequency in Canada. It is happening for sure, but I would imagine the stats on exploitation are much higher because it can happen in your own home. Yes. And so as we start to get into that, as parents, you’re They’re like, Oh, okay, well, that’s a big deal. I know social media and online, as you mentioned, plays a role in this. What can parents do to protect kids and to be aware of when boundaries or lines are being crossed online? What can parents do to protect their kids and what are some red flags parents should be aware of when it comes to their child’s online interactions?
[00:18:25.060] – Speaker 1
Yeah, the online piece is so huge because what it’s done is it’s increased that vulnerability for all children and youth because we see that kids are engaging with things like social media and online platforms to connect with others, have a sense of community, and it’s a way for them to meet their needs for belonging and love and self-esteem and popularity. But when we look at that definition of sexual exploitation, it’s for those needs to be met in exchange for a sexual act. Then you take that to the sex trafficking piece. That’s really what a lot of that grooming centres around, is meeting those needs to create this false sense of relationship to then isolate and exploit or traffic that individual. Definitely we’re seeing that online piece play a big role. Some stats that ground us is that 44% of 7-11-year-olds are using social media daily. It’s almost 50% of kids in that age group are using social media daily, and 82% of 13 to 17-year-olds. They’re spending an average of 4. 8 hours per day on social media.
[00:19:39.520] – Speaker 2
Wow.
[00:19:39.960] – Speaker 1
This doesn’t even include online gaming. Being online, I think the tricky thing is It gives us this false sense of security and safety and privacy. We talk about stranger danger in person, but online, we call strangers friends and followers. It creates this space where kids are basically plastering their needs accidentally online. People with predatory or exploitative intent will try to meet those as a lure into exploitation. That obviously is really overwhelming. I’m not a parent myself, so I can’t fully grasp the emotions that must come with that. But there are a lot of things that parents can do to protect their kids, learning more about the apps and games that your kids are using. I’ll give some helpful resources that people can check out in a little bit. I’m not sure if there are show notes that we could add those to as well. There are some really great resources that you can look to that will actually look at specific games or apps and identify some of the risks and also walk you through different privacy settings that you can set up just to get a little bit more micro on getting some of those things in place.
[00:20:52.610] – Speaker 1
Then also having open and non-judgmental conversations with your kids. We’ll chat about this a bit more as well, but just Starting the conversation, asking questions, and helping your kids build muscle memory around some of these fundamental root causes, like healthy relationships and consent, or that gut feeling that we all have instilled in us of danger in person, trying to have conversations with your kids to really hone that same gut feeling online and to know what to be looking for. And part of that is, like what you mentioned, the red flags. And so because online anybody can be anybody, especially with this age of the rise of AI and deep fakes and all these things, it can be really helpful to focus on behaviours rather than profiles or images. We all have an image of what a predatory person looks like in our minds, but to focus on the behaviours can be a much more helpful tool for both parents and kids. An acronym we use in our One of the sources that our partner AXA has come up with is called SUS, which I think was cool when it was made and now is cringy for teens whenever I present it on it, but it helps it stick regardless.
[00:22:12.290] – Speaker 2
Yeah, I was going to say you still know what it means.
[00:22:14.630] – Speaker 1
It’s I don’t know what it is. So SUS stands for stuff, unhealthy age gap, sexual switch, and secret. So stuff, if someone’s offering them something online, whether that’s modelling opportunities or money for photos or tokens on games or social media rewards. That’s a huge red flag, an unhealthy age gap. So when deception is not involved someone who’s more than four years older, you’ll often see that the 19-year-old or someone posing as a 19-year-old messaging the 14-year-old or the 15-year-old. Sexual. So if someone’s asking for nudes or sexual livestream really quickly, within 48 hours of initial contact, that’s a huge red flag because is the purpose there is trying to normalise that behaviour in the relationship. Switch, so someone asking them to add them on a different platform. So often, if they meet in a game or on Instagram, it’ll be, Hey, add me on Snapchat. Let’s talk there. Or, Hey, let’s talk on Discord. I prefer to chat there. Often it’s intentional because it’s taking them… If you think about the physical version of this, taking them to another space, it is disarming. Often the platforms they’re switching to have fewer restrictions or things like location tracking.
[00:23:33.890] – Speaker 1
And then secrets. If someone’s creating a situation where a child has to keep secrets and lie, whether it’s like, Oh, I’ll give you these tokens, but don’t tell your parents because they wouldn’t get it or whatever. Those can be really helpful behaviours and red flags to look out for in terms of those online interactions. And then also parents can be on the lookout for changes in the behaviour of their kids. Parents are the experts in knowing what their kids are like, their baseline behaviours or habits or personalities, and looking for changes in behaviour and routine. So withdrawing from family or close friends, increased secrecy, especially around their phone, a loss of interest in the things that they used to enjoy, like sports or hobbies, emotional signs like sudden mood swings or increased irritability, appearing more tired than usual or struggling with sleep or newfound mental health struggles, and then concerning online and social behaviours, spending excessive time on their phone, especially late at night, or using apps that you’ve maybe talked to them about that aren’t appropriate or aren’t age-appropriate for them, or hiding their screen when you walk by or receiving messages or gifts from people that they don’t want to talk about.
[00:24:51.890] – Speaker 1
None of these, obviously, as kids go through different developmental phases, some of these things can be normal. It’s not always a red flag, but to just be monitoring that change in behaviour, especially if it’s happening in more than one of these areas, is a really helpful flag to just pause and say, Hey, let’s chat about this, and having frequent conversations where your child knows that they can come to you. Creating some normalcy around these types of conversations can be really helpful if you’re starting to notice some of these things as well.
[00:25:25.070] – Speaker 2
Those are really helpful, and I love the acronym, really, really clear and easy to process and- It’s cringy, but it sticks. Yeah, and use. We know we’ve had a lot of conversations about technology over the episodes, and I think most parents, youth workers, are working through that. But one of the things is we know that technology in itself is neither good or bad. It’s a tool that’s being used. And just because you have social media does not mean you are vulnerable to exploitation. And so there are some sociological, physical life stuff that makes a child or youth a bit more vulnerable to this online or in-person or whatever. Can you talk about some of the common ways children or youth in Canada are more vulnerable to being trafficked or exploited?
[00:26:19.920] – Speaker 1
I think it’s really interesting how you framed it around some of these other factors, whether they’re like structural factors or individual level factors that make people more potentially vulnerable or at risk of being targeted. When we look at that structural piece, at a population level, we can see that certain groups are at higher risk. As I mentioned before, Indigenous women and girls make up 50% of cases. Kids who identify or are struggling with their gender or sexual identity, like LGBTQ plus youth, children and youth in the foster care system or experiencing homelessness, individuals with disabilities, as well as those who are lower socioeconomic status are all… We tend to see an increased reporting of cases among these populations. When we go back to this idea of exploitative people meeting people’s needs in order to build trust, we can look at those structural inequities that exist for some of those groups that would make them have needs that might be a bit easier to spot and meet in order to exploit. If we think about that loss of family support, if there’s a child who’s maybe struggling with their sexuality, so they have a broken relationship with their parents, so maybe they do enter foster care or are running away frequently, those types of things can definitely increase risk.
[00:27:50.290] – Speaker 1
But again, as we talk about with the online space, that risk increases across all children because it’s become so normal to share our needs accidentally online based on the content that we’re putting out there. We have a few videos on the prevention project that go through an example of that, of one person posting and then three different types of predatory people, what they’re reading into each post and how they might try to target those needs from their angle. So, yeah, there are definitely those more structural inequity pieces that contribute to increased vulnerability, but then also those individual level ones. So what’s that kid going through? Do they have increased needs to meet self-esteem or love or belonging? Are they struggling to make friends at school and feeling really isolated? Are things tough at home? Maybe they don’t have that safe adult that they feel like they can talk to. There’s all types of individual and structural pieces that contribute.
[00:28:55.480] – Speaker 2
Which is just so infuriating because, again, It’s those that are most vulnerable who are being prey on and becoming more vulnerable to people that want to take advantage and use them for their own purposes. It’s angry to think that anybody would do that to anybody, but to think about those that are struggling in life with a whole bunch of other things are the ones that are more susceptible and often end up here. Again, it’s great that we’re shining light on this to be able to help and to think through what can we do to help the most vulnerable in our population?
[00:29:34.490] – Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s such a helpful point, just allowing yourself to feel that frustration. And then it also extends the conversation to, well, why are people being exploitative? Why are there people that are trying to target people with these increased needs? It’s almost easier to not even think of them as people because the actions just seem so evil. But often we see that some of those risk factors that we’re talking about are very similar to people who may become perpetrators, people who didn’t have access to supports or whatever. There’s a lot of shared risk factors for these people as they’re developing and becoming children. That’s why I feel so passionately about having these conversations with safe adults like parents, teachers, youth workers, and talking about kids specifically and starting these conversations young is because if there’s shared vulnerability there across potential victims and perpetrators, there’s also a shared opportunity to prevent that from happening on both sides and really looking at how can we meet these kids’ needs in healthy ways so that they don’t have to look to unhealthy ways to get money or to get belonging if that’s in a gang or a network of other people, you know what I mean?
[00:31:04.070] – Speaker 1
So I think it can help humanise the issue as well and create this shared responsibility of, Okay, what are our kids and youth needing from us to prevent this altogether? Because if we prevent people from becoming perpetrators, problem solved.
[00:31:22.570] – Speaker 2
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[00:32:31.830] – Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it’s a tough conversation. It definitely varies by province and municipality. There are some really great services in place. There’s also significant gaps specifically for miners. But in terms of resources that exist more broadly across Canada, we think about the Canadian Human Trafficking Hotline, which is a confidential 24/7 helpline that will help connect survivors with local services, provide crisis support, be able to identify like, Okay, if you’re here, here are some different options to get safe housing or trauma-informed counselling or whatever. That’s a great avenue for people who aren’t looking to report to police right away because there’s so many barriers to reporting. That confidential hotline can be a really helpful resource. Then victim services programme. These tend to be available in most areas and can provide help with crisis intervention, safety planning, referral to support programmes as well. Sometimes they’ll even offer financial assistance for emergency needs. But these programmes also vary widely depending on where you live. Often, they will partner with the local child welfare services as well if it’s a case involving a minor. There are some safe housing options across Canada, but they’re unfortunately incredibly limited, especially for minors.
[00:34:00.880] – Speaker 1
There’s a significant need for long term wrap around trauma-informed care rather than these more short term solutions.
[00:34:10.830] – Speaker 2
I know the church I go to here in the Toronto area partners with an organisation locally to support, create a safe community and spiritual care and healing for sex trafficking victims and their family. So I know if you’re looking around, too, often churches will have avenues or connexions to local organisations or government initiatives as well, just as people are thinking about that, too. And if you’re in a community, you don’t know who or where is helping, sometimes the church is a great place to look to make those connexions. What do you think the biggest gaps are in Canada for the response to trafficking and what changes do we need to make at the broad level and then even in the community level?
[00:34:58.820] – Speaker 1
Yeah, this is This is a big question for me. On a broad level, at the federal level, there was a national strategy to combat human trafficking, and it was a five-year strategy, and it’s currently being revised for renewal. There’s different levels of strategy happening at the provincial levels. But some of the big gaps we’re seeing is that housing and support piece that I was talking about, and also a lot of the social services that would help meet some of the needs that increase the vulnerability piece. Housing in general, those types of assistance programmes. But specifically for trafficking, there are very few long-term trauma-informed programmes designed specifically for survivors of trafficking. I also think we need to increase opportunities for survivor leadership. I have spent years of my life studying this, and I’ve never learned more than just being in relationship with somebody with lived experience. So creating more pathways to elevate those voices and to give equitable opportunities for those voices to be leading some of those conversations around strategy and support, I think is really, really important, and compensating them fairly for that because we see this reexploitation of people As well, also the data piece is, again, why I’ve decided to focus on getting my PhD, because I think there’s just so many barriers that exist to reporting for trafficking that we need to get more creative in terms of other ways to capture this data, to help us overcome those barriers to reporting and creating more avenues for survivors to get the support they need.
[00:36:41.080] – Speaker 1
Then just to rattle off a few more while I’m at it, I think there’s some Some of the challenges with the criminal legal system. We see from our stats can reports every year that there’s incredibly low conviction rates. I think around 10% of cases, and sentencing is really low. And so this increases that barrier to reporting in terms of, is that individual actually going to get safe from the person that’s trafficking them if ultimately conviction and sentencing is really low, and survivors often face barriers to justice and are actually can be criminalised themselves. Then I think we also need to increase advocacy for online safety regulations. There’s an organisation that’s out here as well called Defend Dignity that does a great job of outlining some bills and ways that you can write to your local government on that piece as well. Then also the need for early prevention and education, having these conversations with kids, starting with the building blocks and really equipping parents, educators, youth leaders across our country to create more dialogue around this issue.
[00:37:54.260] – Speaker 2
We’ve also talked a little bit, not much, even about the demand side of this as well. And a topic no one really likes to talk about is pornography. And I know there’s a strong connexion to trafficking and pornography. And so I think for those of us that may even struggle with that on one end, it’s like, pornography exists and trafficking exists in pornography because it’s a billion dollar industry. And so at the end of the day, if we can individually and encourage the demand to go down on that side, then I think We can put those things out of business. And so, yeah, it’s something no one really wants to talk about, but I do think no one really wants to admit they struggle with that or participate in that. But I think men and women alike now, based on statistics, It exists because people are using it. And so if we can stop using it, we can also play a role in that.
[00:38:52.720] – Speaker 1
I think there’s definitely an irrefutable connexion there. So that’s a great point to bring up. And even some of the bills that I was mentioning, there’s Bill S-210 right now being considered around even protecting young persons from exposure to pornography. That’s what that act is all about. And it’s really around if kids are being exposed to violent pornography at a young age, which unfortunately we know is happening, then it also creates this desensitisation. Or if we think about kids who become perpetrators, it instil it normalises really harmful behaviours. The fact that that bill isn’t already in place and that there’s so much pushback really speaks to the fact that a lot of people don’t want to potentially face a reduction in their own access to pornography. So definitely an important conversation to raise. I think a conversation that is really worth having within communities and things like that.
[00:39:57.060] – Speaker 2
I want to circle back now for parents and youth workers, but particularly your parents. How do you start to have open, age-appropriate conversations with kids about this topic in the world, but also in their own social media participation, interaction? How do you have this conversation without scaring them or freaking out yourself and going in and saying, No more. I heard a podcast today and no more social media. How do we have these conversations in a healthy way without going to one or two extremes, not talking about it at all or making it way too scary or too overwhelming?
[00:40:40.540] – Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s such a great question. I think one of the most helpful places to start can be just getting more comfortable with the topic yourself. And so even a lot of the resources that we’ve developed on the prevention project, like I said, there’s over 120 resources on there. I’ve used those resources with many adults in my life because it helps give simpler terms to some of these issues that we’re talking about. The more that someone understands something, the more confident they’ll feel navigating conversations around it. We also have a lot of tips on there as well around what to do if someone discloses to you and what some frequently asked questions are around these topics to just increase that confidence. But I think it really comes down to having frequent conversations rather than trying to do a big sit-down style, really just trying to introduce these conversations frequently and being okay with the fact that you don’t know everything. Many of us didn’t grow up talking about these topics, especially with the online piece. We were joking earlier, Chris, about social media not being a big part of what shaped us when we were young.
[00:41:52.950] – Speaker 1
So it can feel really tricky to figure out how do we talk about that without reducing the value of the community that children are getting through these avenues while also having good conversations about it. I think the more that we normalise these discussions, the easier it’ll be for you and your child to talk about the tough stuff when it matters the most. Really creating spaces where your child feels safe to ask questions and share their experiences, even starting conversations by saying, Hey, I didn’t grow up having these conversations, but I want to make sure you feel safe talking to me. Even if it’s uncomfortable, I’d love to even watch this video together that’s a minute long about sexual exploitation, and then we could chat about it if you have any questions. Just leading with honesty and looking to build connexion and ask questions can really help show your child that you’re going to be safe to turn to when they need support, and that it’s not something you’re afraid to talk about because a lot of kids experience that fear, either of punishment or of being misunderstood or of, Oh, my parents have so much on their plate already.
[00:43:05.740] – Speaker 1
I don’t think I should bring this to them, especially when you think about the messages they might be getting from people online. So really, my best advice is just don’t worry about getting it perfect. Show up often. It’s okay to make mistakes and just try to meet your kids where they’re at. So, Hey, I see you spend a lot of time playing Roblox. Can I watch you play? And in that, you can just understand how they’re interacting and observe and ask questions about that. Hey, has anyone ever talked to you on here that you don’t know? What’s that like? What do you do? Really trying to make these conversations feel a little bit more normal.
[00:43:44.770] – Speaker 2
What’s some advice you would have for a parent who is listening and been concerned about their child with this type of stuff? They use that sus acronym and they’re like, Okay, there’s some things here that are not good. What advice or even a kid who’s come forward and said, Hey, someone’s asking for this or messaging, what advice would you have for parents that feel like they’re just at the verge of discovering this is happening or, No, I found out that it’s going on?
[00:44:14.130] – Speaker 1
I think the first step is take a breath, stay calm, trying to avoid to jump to conclusions because that can lead to maybe having accusatory or confrontational conversations that might create more distance. Really trying to have an open conversation about, Hey, I’ve noticed this. Can you tell me more about it? Or, How are things going? Hey, I’ve noticed that you’ve been spending a lot more time on your phone and you hide it when I pass by. I want to respect your need for privacy, but I also want to make sure that you’re okay. Is there someone that you’re talking to? Is there something we can talk about there? Creating just that more curious approach might be helpful. Also using resources to help give you the confidence to recognise those warning signs. If you’re really concerned or you’re not sure and you’re not sure how to approach it, even calling the human trafficking hotline to say, Hey, this is what I’ve observed. Can you talk me through it? Can be a A full starting point for sure. But ultimately, listen to your gut. Seek support if needed. If your gut is telling you something isn’t right, consider reaching out to others who can support you in navigating that in your own circles, whether that’s a school counsellor or looking to prevention resources or things like that.
[00:45:33.960] – Speaker 2
I think the secrecy part of that is really important, right? That predators are trying to keep things a secret. If it can come to light, it can be much more helpful in prevention and not having it escalate even further. I think kids will keep things more secret if things are getting close to lines or over lines, if they think it’s their fault. I think as parents and adults that care about kids, the more we can… Because it is not their fault that they’re being exploited that way. How do we make sure that they know that that’s not the case? You have to be careful in how we approach the conversations and the way we talk about it. But to your point, I think getting the conversation going is the most important in bringing this stuff to light and creating a safe environment for kids to work through it with someone that they trust is really important. What are some resources or tools you would recommend for parents to continue to educate themselves, to take beyond this conversation, and maybe even use to educate their children about trafficking prevention?
[00:46:43.540] – Speaker 1
Yeah. I would be remiss to not mention again, the Prevention Project, just because I’m sure I’m biassed. It provides really helpful resources for children and youth, as well as for parents and educators. We have a whole separate tab on there where we have educator guides that can be used by parents or educators that, again, include some of those FAQs or additional context for the topic to increase that comfort with engaging in these conversations. But then it also has those really bite-sized, light-hearted videos. An interesting story, I’ll try to keep it brief, but about a week before we were set to launch these resources, a friend reached out to me and said, Hey, my younger cousin is showing all of these signs, and her parents think that she’s being groomed. What do I do? The parents had tried to approach the conversation, and the child was just not responding and was like, No, this is a real relationship. You don’t understand. You didn’t have technology, you didn’t have social media, and was just dismissing everything that her parents were trying to say. I basically went ahead and sent her some of the videos we had created and said, Hey, why don’t you just see if your cousin will watch these and see if that creates an opportunity for her to identify her own situation rather than someone else telling her that it’s wrong.
[00:48:07.760] – Speaker 1
After watching one of our video infographics on online grooming and what that can look like, that’s a minute and a half long video, she came to her parents and she said, I think you’re right. I think this is what’s happening. What do we do?
[00:48:21.870] – Speaker 2
Wow.
[00:48:22.280] – Speaker 1
Sometimes just having that information come from another source, again, creating these communities of safety where it’s not just coming from parents, but also teachers, also youth group leaders, camp counsellors, getting kids access to these resources can be so helpful. So that’s one. And then also the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, they have great resources for families as well, including resource guides on how to address these things, how to address suspected abuse or peer exploitation, how to navigate sextortion, things like that. And then another one that’s helpful is Common Sense Media. When we’re talking about the online piece and trying to figure out what apps are okay and what privacy settings we should get, Common Sense Media provides age-based reviews of various media content, like apps and games and even movies and TV. You can set the age that you’re looking for, and it’ll basically give you just additional context on those things. If you know your kids are, like I said, playing Roblox really often, it can help you just understand a little bit more of what might be happening on that app and what you do to create more safety there.
[00:49:32.800] – Speaker 2
Great suggestions, resources. It’s thepreventionproject. Ca, and I’m looking at it as we talk opportunities for parents and educators. There’s grade levels and age levels, and I even see at the bottom, there are direct connexions to helplines and different things like that. So again, a great place to land and start the journey, maybe for many parents as they’re going through it. Sylvia, this is a big topic, and you know that better than anyone else. I’m sure there’s some parents that are just, you feel like you’re drinking from a fire hose or getting jabbed with a few punches as you listen through this. A great way to continue the conversation through the resources you’ve suggested. But I wonder, even as we summarise this, what would be the most important message you want parents to take away from this conversation?
[00:50:27.780] – Speaker 1
I think if I could say one thing, it’s that you don’t have to be perfect to make a difference in your child’s safety. You just have to be present. Because I think there’s so much fear around, if I bring up this conversation and something happens, then what do I do? Or if I don’t have the right answers, or there’s so many reasons that are really valid to not have these conversations, but you don’t have to be perfect to make that difference. And by being present, by creating creating an open, trusting dialogue where your child feels safe to ask questions or share concerns can be the most powerful form of protection.
[00:51:10.000] – Speaker 2
Well, as the first conversation was, this was just as, and maybe even more so, insightful and helpful now that the prevention project is there, and we can have access to those resources. Really appreciate you joining us today and the work that you do, and all the best as you continue to advocate for children and youth and people that have become victims to exploitation and trafficking and the fight to keep people more aware and prevent it. So thank you for the work you do. And thanks for your time today, Sofia.
[00:51:44.110] – Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks so much, Chris. I really appreciate the space and intentionality to have these conversations on a platform like this one. So really grateful for the invitation to be here today.
[00:51:57.850] – Speaker 2
Well, that’s a wrap on today’s issue. What a difficult but really important conversation. If you want to keep the conversation going, or maybe you’re interested in Sofia’s previous interview or another guest or topic we’ve had on the podcast, why don’t you head over to moscokawoods. Com, where you find a blog post for every episode full of highlights, key takeaways, and a link to listen again. While you’re there, explore more about how Miscokawoods is creating life-changing experiences for young people. Don’t forget to subscribe and share, and we’ll catch you next time.
