[00:00:11.920] – Speaker 2
Well, hey, I’m Chris Tompkins, and welcome to the Shaping Our World podcast. My goal is to invite you into a conversation that will leave you more confident in understanding and inspiring the young people in your life. Each episode, we talk with leading experts and offer relevant resources to dive deeper into the world of our youth today. Today, Today, I’m joined by Dr. Susan Chuang, professor, researcher, and family mediator who has spent her career studying parenting, fatherhood, child development, and the evolving dynamics between parents and kids across cultures. Her research spans the globe from Chinese and Jamaican families to immigrant communities right here in Canada. She’s also leading important conversations on how parents and teens are talking about mental health, conflict, and even cannabis use, and what all of this means for family connexion and communication. What makes Sue’s perspective so unique is that she combines research with hands-on community work. She regularly leads workshops for parents, kids, and educators, offering practical tools for real-life challenges. So whether you’re raising a young child or mentoring a teen, there’s something in this conversation for every parent or adult who cares for kids. I want to welcome to the show Dr. Susan Chuang.
[00:01:32.900] – Speaker 2
I work at Muskoka Woods as a CEO, but my journey began in 1996 as a member of the summer staff, and it was life-changing. Working at Muskoka Woods is not just about the job. You get housing, meals, and the chance to live in one of the most beautiful places in Ontario, Lake Rosseau. More than that, you’ll be part of a community that values your development and well-being. With access to our facilities and special staff events. Ready for a career that offers so much more? Visit jobs.muskokawoods.com to learn more. Now, let’s delve into today’s conversation. Sue, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you.
[00:02:12.760] – Speaker 1
Well, thank you for inviting me. I’m honoured to talk with you today.
[00:02:15.880] – Speaker 2
Yeah, and as we were warming up before and getting to know each other, I could tell this is going to be a lively conversation. So I’m really excited.
[00:02:22.680] – Speaker 1
I hope so. I have a lot to say.
[00:02:25.580] – Speaker 2
Amazing. We can’t wait to get into that. But before we do, we talked a bit about your in the intro, but help us get to know you a little bit better. What shaped your world when you were growing up? When you’re a child or a teenager, what were the biggest influences that shaped you?
[00:02:39.180] – Speaker 1
Well, you’re making me go a little bit back there, but I think that as a teen growing up. I think the biggest influences in my life are my parents. I say were because my mum had passed about 13 years ago, but my parents. And growing up in a Christian family and the service that my mum and my dad did for the church, having people come to our house and seeing how my mum and my dad had built a sense of community. Also, my dad is an only child, and so his mum would live with us. So my paternal grandmother also raised me. I couldn’t really speak the language, but we go through food. Her cooking was amazing. We shared rooms when I was growing up, and she’s been a major influence in my life as well.
[00:03:28.400] – Speaker 2
That’s great. Tell Tell us a little bit about you today. What shapes your world? What are the personal interests, hobbies? What do you like to do for fun?
[00:03:37.980] – Speaker 1
Well, what I like to do for fun actually blends into what I do for work. One of the highlights as a professor, yes, you have to publish and do all these things, but part of my unique role as a professor that I created is that I do conferences. It actually is buying the conference guests for everybody, getting it customized. That actually It brings a lot of joy for me. As I give it out to people, they’re very excited about it. It’s actually very exciting. Also, I like to do pottery. I have a pottery wheel, I have a kiln. Pottery just really gives me a sense of break from everything because you can’t think of anything except for the clay. And you just pray, say, God, please don’t let this pot fall.
[00:04:21.540] – Speaker 2
I admire people that can get into pottery. I think mine would be all warped and distorted. It’s all fun. That’s not my interest or skill set, maybe. I would be interested to do it, but that’s great. You talked a bit about your work. Can you just maybe unpack for us from your voice, the things that you do for work? What are you doing that shapes the world of families and kids today?
[00:04:50.340] – Speaker 1
Well, as a professor, I teach a lot of students, and actually, I teach a lot of students at my university. Each year, I teach about 1,500 students. Teaching them, but then also my community work that I do and talking to families. My work has focused on trying to help families, students understand the importance of human development, above the research about child development, parenting, parent-child relationships, and being able to disseminate that in a way that is applicable, usable, meaningful, that can actually help families strengthen their relationships with all family members.
[00:05:34.960] – Speaker 2
That’s amazing. We’re going to take that and dive right into it because I know from your experience, your research, your work, your teaching, all the things that you’re involved in, you’re going to have a lot to offer our listeners today. As you mentioned, you’ve spent decades studying parenting, family dynamics, child development, and even across diverse cultural contexts. You mentioned the conference you founded and organised on New Shores conferences, seven of them actually, that focus on the experiences of immigrant and refugee families. I want to get into that first. What originally drew you to this work? Why is it so important?
[00:06:13.680] – Speaker 1
When I first started out in grad school, and then my first job was in the United States. My experience is in the United States, and then coming to Canada to work at the university in 2006. We have a high immigrant population, and so the challenges of coming from a country, going into a new one, and especially when language is a new language as well, I really admire, especially the young children who come to have to learn a whole new language, a whole new social network for families to come across to Canada, the challenges that they face. It’s difficult. It’s difficult just growing up as a kid, parenting children, let alone being in a new country and just trying to navigate all the systems and ensuring that you are not just surviving, but you’re thriving, and that you have great relationships with your family members, but also within the community. And so, like I said at the beginning, when my mum created, my mum and my dad had a lot of church people coming to our house to do Bible study. I’ve learned from that how to host. I love cooking. My mother and my grandmother taught me how to cook and bringing everybody together.
[00:07:38.020] – Speaker 1
And so when I saw that there was an opportunity to bring people together to start talking about the real issues, I took advantage of that. A lot of my conferences is just academics, a lot of scholars, graduate students, which is wonderful. But where’s the applied part? Where are the community people? When I started the Anya Shores conference in 2005, at Syracuse University, and then in 2007 in Canada and continued them, it was not just academics, because I think that… I mean, research is great, but how about taking some of that knowledge and giving it to and sharing it with the community. My conferences were always academics and community organisations and members and stakeholders. That’s when we actually were able to collaborate and see that our research can change accordingly so that it is applicable, rather than publishing it and putting it on the shelf and then how many people read it. To me, I think that sharing that knowledge and learning and hearing what is actually going on on the ground level, then what do we need to know as academics, as scholars, to research and assist in terms of providing that knowledge to help service providers provide services and programmes.
[00:08:56.360] – Speaker 1
For example, all the camps that you’re doing, the benefits of that is not just short term, but has long term consequences, which have amazing benefits for all people involved. This is why I do conferences, is to get to know everybody else To me, I see it as a big party. It gives me opportunities to give out my swag. But it’s really just learning from around the world what people are doing because we’re all siloed. So it’s unfortunate.
[00:09:28.780] – Speaker 2
You shared in your conferences and your work, you talked about there’s a lot of academics and a lot of thinking and theory applied to it. And you shared a little bit about your journey growing up. I just wonder, are there any other stories or real life flesh to some of this stuff about immigrant families before we get into talking about parenting and those issues that keep you really engaged in wanting to help and make a difference in this area?
[00:09:58.760] – Speaker 1
Well, it’s not just immigrant families, but it’s all families, actually. There’s a lot more commonalities, similarities than differences, and especially when our world is changing so rapidly, politically, the things that are going around the world that’s affecting all the countries. It’s more of those nuances. I have an opening. When I do my parenting workshops, I request that the audience is adults only because I do have an opening story that I do start with to try to drive at the importance of parents. Perhaps I can share it. Yeah, go ahead. Because it goes both ways. As I had said, my parents We grew up Christian, but actually my mum was a volunteer pastor. She was a pastor in a Chinese church. There was a couple, a family, that was struggling with their child. There was an her only daughter, and they immigrated to Canada, I believe, when she was in grade nine. When they came, of course, it’s very difficult for a teen to come in to a new country as an adolescent. Of course, she was struggling in her courses, but she was doing really well in art. Her teacher was like, Wow, you’re such a great artist.
[00:11:25.040] – Speaker 1
You have to be an artist. It’s just amazing. In grade 10, the same thing. A lot of people really admired her. They saw her talents as an artist. She told her parents that she wanted to be an artist. Well, her parents were quite concerned and worried. They told her that she couldn’t be an artist. She needs to go to university. They are trying to convince her to not be an artist. What they did was they had a friend who was an artist, actually, and said to him, Would you mind talking to our daughter and telling her that she needs to go to university? He goes, Okay, I’ll do that for you. They went to house, saw his art, and then he said to her, Hey, listen, you just got to study hard and go to university. Forget being an artist. You’re going to starve to death. It’s really difficult to make a living of this. The parents thanked him, and then they went home and they said, Okay, so what would you like to do when you grow up? She goes, I want to be an artist. The parents were even more concerned now. Then they remembered, Oh, wait, the pastor’s daughter is a professor.
[00:12:26.120] – Speaker 1
Maybe she can talk to our daughter and change her mind. And go to university. So my mum asked me if I would be willing to talk to the family. And I said, under one condition, that they come to our house because I had to make sure what I told them that the daughter couldn’t hear us. So they agreed, and they were very happy and very excited to come and see me. So when they sat down, I said to them, Did you know that the fact that she’s actually doing really amazing in a class actually helps her with her self-esteem in the other classes? They said, Oh, we didn’t know that. I go, Did you also know that she could be an art teacher? Being a teacher actually is a really great profession. They said, Oh, we didn’t think of that. I go, Okay. Let me tell you another story. I grew up with three brothers. There’s four of us in five years. I’m the third. My oldest brother was now deciding to go to university. All of us wanted to be like my dad, who was a family physician. So four kids wanted to be a medical doctor.
[00:13:27.240] – Speaker 1
My daddy knew that it was very difficult to be a doctor doctor to go to medical school. He remembered that he had a friend about 18 years ago when he was doing his residency, that the colleague actually had a son, an older son, who just completed medical school. It We were three hours away. He was in Kingston. We drove all the way there, myself, my dad, my mum, my brother, and myself. We drove to meet this friend, and he wanted to find out how he got into medical school. They hadn’t seen each other for a very long time. Then when they saw each other, The meeting was over in about half an hour to an hour. It was very weird, and it was very sombre. We went into the car, and my dad goes, Oh, my gosh, I forgot. I’m so stupid. I forgot. We were like, What happened? My dad said, Well, what happened was they went to their son’s graduation. But the next day, the son wrote the father a letter, the parents a letter, and said, I have fulfilled my role as a son, and he committed suicide. When I told the parents this story, Of course, the mother cried.
[00:14:31.920] – Speaker 1
I said, So is it your happiness or your child’s happiness? They went home, and then a couple of years later, the daughter heard that somebody was coming to visit my mum. She said, Hey, are you going to go see the pastor? The person says, Yes. She goes, Can you send a message to the pastor’s daughter? They said, Yeah, sure. What is it? She goes, I don’t know what she said to my parents, but they completely changed. She was at McGill University. I don’t know what her major was, unfortunately, but that’s the point. What are you doing? What are you encouraging your children to do? Is it for you, for the face of your family, to Is it what you say, Oh, my child is what a medical doctor, an engineer, an accountant, or is it really what they really want to do and what they do well at, what they Excel in?
[00:15:24.820] – Speaker 2
As you’re sharing that story, you shared in the context of an immigrant family But I think it’s easy to see some of these experiences as maybe unique to different cultural experiences. But I’m finishing a book called Never Again by Jennifer Wallace, or Never Enough, which is about the academic achievement culture. And she’s a journalist, and she’s put together all this research on how much the pressure that young people are in to get into the right schools and grades is literally killing them. And what can we do as parents? And What I love about her, she’s a journalist, so she put together all this research from all over the place. This is a universal experience for so many parents. I’m wondering, as we highlight and talk about some of the work you’ve done with immigrant refugee families, you did also You mentioned a lot of the parenting experience are transferable. What have you noticed or some of the key similarities or differences in how we parent or support kids across cultures? That’s one, the pressure, the academic stress professors. And just as an interesting aside, a lot of this is driven from the parents. You mentioned that, the pressure that parents feel to set their kids up to success that they think equals all of these things.
[00:16:43.380] – Speaker 2
But the research actually says It doesn’t always equal those things.
[00:16:47.540] – Speaker 1
Yes. And I think that if you think about it, that son who already finished medical school, so he was in his 20s. He couldn’t still see the purpose of what his parents wanted. Most parents would want their children to be successful. What they see is, and of course, education does hopefully translate to a comfortable income, so you don’t have to go paycheck to paycheck. You want your children to thrive. It’s through education, it’s through that social mobility to go through the world. But what parents may not realise, and what kids don’t really realise, is that how competitive the world has become. I’m in university. I see how How difficult it is. Even now, just getting volunteering experience is very difficult for students because there’s so many trying to do it. The competition is skyrocketing. Everybody’s going to grad school. People are getting university and college degrees. They’re combining whatever they can and with all their volunteering experience. I think that parents, of course, have the good intent of wanting their children to be successful. But what children here is all you care about are my grades. If my grades aren’t high enough, that’s all care about.
[00:18:00.300] – Speaker 1
I was like, No, it’s not really that case. It’s really about your future. But kids can’t see it. It’s like, At what cost? Yeah. You want your children to be well-rounded. You want your children to have all these opportunities. This actually reminds me of this other story where a family… I say in my parenting workshop, my bottom line is, I’ll do workshops and say how to get your children to university or to college, but the bottom line is mental health. You want your children to be well-rounded, have a good sense of well-being, and for yourselves as well, family well-being as well. At the end of my parenting workshops, I would say, If your child says to you, I am not happy, see that as a red sign. I was contacted. I do all these workshops, and wherever they are, whatever people ask me to do, I just do it. Then I remember I got an email, and it was Hi, Professor, I met you. I went to your workshop a year ago, and I remembered that you said this once. I don’t remember your workshop. I just remember when you said, My child says to me, I am not happy.
[00:19:11.340] – Speaker 1
That’s something that I need to take to deal with right away. I went to her house, and it turns out that a whole spew of things. This one middle child, he was not only academically successful because he was in the ’90s, but he was the captain of of his basketball team, captain of this, he was captain in all the sports he was doing. So that is great leadership. But the parents didn’t quite acknowledge that. And I was just like, wow, this person is going to do really well in life. She was forcing him to play piano. And I’m like, what? So I’m like, Why piano? She’s like, Well, it’s just good for him to know. And it got to the point where she would say that he would even cry when he was playing the piano, and he would cry at the lessons. I’m like, At what cost? She was, I just want him to get to grade nine. Grade nine piano, and then he can quit. I said to her, Most likely, the teacher is probably just passing him along. In grade nine, you have to take an exam. I don’t think he’s going to pass.
[00:20:16.580] – Speaker 1
I’m like, You’re doing this. You want him to be well-rounded, but you’re fighting with him every day to practise. You see that he’s emotionally distraught, but you’re still making him do it. It’s coming at the cost of your relationship. You have to let him quit. And she finally let him quit. But it’s like, I understand that there’s certain things that parents have to hold their children accountable for, but others, it’s like, Pick your battles. Is it coming at a cost of your relationship.
[00:20:47.180] – Speaker 2
Yeah, that’s good. This author in the book, Never Enough, talked about that a bunch of her focus is around, and exactly what you’re saying, just with different language around it, is is helping kids learn that they matter. When we’re prioritising grades and success, it’s about the outcome, not about who they are. I’m sure when people go to your website, they can find a lot of stuff you’ve done, and they can look up that book. Let’s take a moment to talk about Miskoka Wood CEO Leadership Programme. This isn’t just a summer programme. It’s a stepping stone for your future. Teenagers can earn a grade 11 high school credit or complete community service hours, all while developing leadership skills in a supportive environment. Our team of passionate staff ensures every CEO has a remarkable and educational experience. Interested in joining this July or August? Find out more at muskokawoods.com. You mentioned your workshops that you do on parenting, and you offer these free community workshops for young people. You do school-age children to teenagers, emerging adults to raise awareness on mental health. I want to go just to help some of our listeners, because we know mental health challenges for young people are rising.
[00:22:18.890] – Speaker 2
On this show, we’ve had lots of guests talk about that. But I wonder, from your perspective, as you do these workshops, what are some of the most common challenges young people bring up What can we as caring adults do to better support them?
[00:22:34.360] – Speaker 1
Well, I think one of the biggest issues that we all face, actually, at all levels is screen time. Whether it be on our phone or iPad, that level of addiction. It becomes problematic. What are children seeing? What are parents doing and showing? You can say whatever you want, but monkey see monkey do. Are you always on your phone? But you’re telling your children, Hey, get off your phone. Are you holding them accountable? Are you actually monitoring properly? A lot of times parents will tell their children, Okay, go to your room. But then the computer’s there. They have endless screen time. Are we monitoring that? How do parents ensure that their children have high confidence in themselves, high self-esteem? That really is the foundation of well-being, is a sense of worth of your self-esteem. How do we promote that? There’s There’s a lot of things that parents can do, but one of the key things is, number one, is are there boundaries known to children, and are you holding them accountable? For young children, maybe you’re five years old, screen time, 20 minutes. Half an hour. You’re adolescents. Well, no more than an hour of free screen time on your phone because you have to remember, it’s not just screen time for them, it’s also their social networking.
[00:23:55.880] – Speaker 1
This is how they can continue maintaining their relationships with their friends. You have to see the complexities of what technology is doing for us. But then also being consistent within yourself and also with the other caregiver, the parent. Are you on the same page? Are you united? Also for children, knowing that their parents want to be with them. Do children know that you’re there because you want to be there? If you’re in the room, are you on your phone, or when your child is talking with you, are you looking at them, or are you looking away, or are you doing something else? That’s why if you have your children say, Hey, you’re not listening to me. It’s like, I am. I’m right here. It’s like, No, but you’re not engaging. They can see if you’re really paying attention or not. Anybody would find that annoying if you’re looking somewhere else. It’s like, Then I’m not going to talk with you. But I think opening up that space, but then also encouraging children to be able to talk with you in a safe space. Are you going to judge them right away? Or are you going to tell them what they’re going to do?
[00:25:00.950] – Speaker 1
Are you going to punish them for something? There’s a lot of things that families can do to set up a warm and supportive environment. Even just lines of communication, especially teen I have parents with teenagers. They really struggle. They’re like, Sue, my kids only say three words to me. That’s all they say. I’m like, But then what are you asking? Are you asking open-ended questions or are you asking yes No questions. How are you? How’s school? Or do you have to ask a question? Why not just share about your life when you were a kid? Funny stories, nothing with a moral story, something like, Okay, you want me to what? Do more chores? There’s no agenda behind it.
[00:25:51.180] – Speaker 2
What’s the point in this? What are you after?
[00:25:53.900] – Speaker 1
What are you really asking me? But just tell me, are you telling me about a story about how so-and-so got into medical school again? I mean, come on. We’ve all heard those stories. What’s interesting, actually, that the four of us, even though my dad was a family doctor, he worked in Brampton for almost 50 years, none of us actually made it to medical school. We’re all doctors, but we didn’t actually make it to medical school, which is unfortunate because we couldn’t take over his practise was his point as well. But providing also opportunities for children. You hear about all these people who are selling in their field. It’s because their parents had a lot of musical instruments in the house, or they took them out to do sports. That’s where people found, Oh, you know what? I’m really good at this. I’m really good at that. But how would children really know how good they are at something if they don’t have that opportunity? I remember that I had a third-year student who came to see me because students know I have an open door. I’ll talk to you as long as you need me to talk with you.
[00:27:00.000] – Speaker 1
I had one student who was going into fourth year and I was like, Uh-oh, because third year, what am I going to do afterwards? The way I guide them is, Don’t give me a profession. Don’t give me a label, because a lot of students don’t really know. They only know a few labels, like profession There’s thousands of professions out there. I say, What are you good at? She’s like, I’m not really good at anything. I’m like, Okay, don’t be modest. Just tell me what you’re really good at, so then I can help me think of how to guide you and what experiences you should go out and do. Seriously, she could not think of one thing. Her esteem was so low that I said, You know what? Why don’t you take a year off if it’s okay with your parents? I will talk with your parents, which I ended up doing. Just go out in the world, volunteer, do a whole bunch of things. Even then she was scared because she’s like, But I’m not good at anything. That, to me, is crippling, and that’s really sad to see. I’ve seen a lot of students who are academically inclined, but they just don’t have any confidence in themselves because parents are too critical.
[00:28:04.260] – Speaker 1
What are you saying? How are you saying it? I would actually ask parents, if you were your child and you could choose your parent, would they choose you? I had parents who said, Yeah, I would choose me because I would be so much better. I go, Okay, then. If you’re… Oh, man, if I only knew all these things, I could have excelled. I could have done all these things. Yeah, hindsight’s 2020, right? But I said, Okay, let me change it. If your child could choose you or not choose you or choose another parent, would they choose you? Why or why not? You know what? Maybe ask your child, Is it safe enough? And just tell them, Listen, no consequences. You apologise for the things that you have done. When I’ve gone into families and I’ve helped hundreds of families in crisis situations, they turn out most of them are not in crisis situations. But there are things that parents have done that have not been so helpful, not so great. I say, Listen, you need to acknowledge it. You need to apologise for it, and I’ll be there. You need to tell them that you are going to be different.
[00:29:12.390] – Speaker 1
You’re going to change. When parents do that, we don’t ask. I go, Listen, prepare yourself. We’re not asking for an apology on the other end. But most times than not, the children also apologise for not doing their part. They come to the middle and things change completely because they There are no perfect parents. All families are dysfunctional for one reason or another or wherever it might be. But the point, though, is, can you work together and have children understand, Listen, I did make a mistake, but you know what? Here’s a better way. Do you agree? When everybody agrees, everybody goes in the same direction. Now, you might have extended family who are not maybe all that helpful. Well, then you need to get them on board. If they’re not on board, you need to put them on a little bit on the outs. Within, it’s like, These are our boundaries. This is how we’re going to do things. Please join us. Because that also causes a lot of tensions. In-laws cause a lot of tension between the parents, which then influence impact the children directly or indirectly. Sure. Who are all those people around I found you.
[00:30:15.760] – Speaker 2
One of the things I appreciate about what you’re sharing is you’ve highlighted a few things for parents to listen to. You mentioned, I’m unhappy, I’m not doing well when we hear kids say that. You also mentioned subtly in that last bit just on, I don’t know what I’m good at or I’m not good at anything. I think there are some of these cues for us to pay attention to that help us step into that. I love that. Thank you for sharing all that. You’ve done so much work in your experience broadly on child and adolescent development and parenting. But what I love about some of this stuff in our research we found is you drill in on a few of these other, some other topics as well through your research and work that you’re doing. I know you’ve done a lot of research on fathering, and you’re the lead organiser of the Men and Families conference that’s been happening since 2022. At the conference, you dive into relevant issues and topics pertaining to boys and men. Can you tell us why you focused on the subject of fathering, and what’s the impact of that relationship on families, kids?
[00:31:25.340] – Speaker 1
Well, first, my daddy is the best daddy in the world, so no harm in looking at fathering. But actually, it’s more of my work. When I started early in my career, after my PhD, I did three years of extra training at the National Institutes of Health in the United States. The scholar who actually created and developed the field, Michael Lange, was my postdoc advisor. That’s how I got into fathering. I’m like, Of course. There are 60 plus years of research that states clearly, consistently, that fathers do matter. Fathers do make unique contributions to their children’s lives separate from mothers. Fathers is just like a second caregiver. We’re just using the traditional gendered roles of mothers and fathers. But fathers are equally sensitive and responsive as mothers. I always did positive father engagement, looking to see if fathers are involved in their children’s lives. It wasn’t until December 2020 when my master student actually wanted to look at intimate partner violence against men. I’m like, Wow, that’s a pretty deep dark subject area, but a much needed area. When I started to look into it, I then got into the roles, into the areas of high conflict, separation, divorce.
[00:32:58.560] – Speaker 1
Again, we’re in Canada, Also in the United States, in many countries, union breakdowns, not just… Many people don’t get married now. It’s more common law. But regardless, there’s a lot of family breakdown. When there are family breakdowns, there’s always going to be… There’s one parent who tends to be more at substantial risk of being out of the purview of the children’s lives. That is devastating. That’s why when I went into this field and looking into it and hearing the stories of mothers and fathers who have lost contact due to extreme parental gatekeeping, it’s devastating. It’s emotional. It’s abuse, especially for the children, because the children have a right. It’s one of their basic human rights, according to the UN Convention, Article 3, that children have the right to having relationships with all of their family members. Whether the parents want to live together or not, that’s up to you. But you can divorce or separate from the other person, but you can’t divorce your child from that parent. That has long-term consequences. All the negative things that you can think of for children, they’re at higher increase for that. But I think that there are ways of what is in the best interest of the child.
[00:34:21.390] – Speaker 1
Really, many parents, though, they have amicable separations because they realise and they are putting their children first. Even in abusive relationships. There are ways to navigate that. That’s why it’s important for community organisations and services to provide that support for those who do recognise that they’re in abusive relationships and what can be done and how to navigate that. But what I’m seeing, it’s very concerning because when there is a high conflict situation, especially if lawyers get involved, we’re talking even just financially can devastate families. All of the emotional consequences and the psychological consequences to this. It’s all the extended family that are going to be affected. It’s more of like, what can we do? Even when I entered into this dark space, I actually forced myself to go back to school because I knew I wouldn’t read on my own because I have so many things coming up and how things go. I’ll do it later. I am an accredited family mediator, but I’m hoping that there’s mediators out there who can help mediate. That’s what I’ve been doing for the last 20 years, going into families. I actually mediate it. One of the key things that I have seen, regardless of ethnicity, immigration status, education, profession, a couple of key things that I’ve noticed.
[00:35:47.220] – Speaker 1
Number one, a lot of parents don’t really realise the impact they have on their children. When they go into these homes, they go, Okay, Sue, here’s my child. I’m like, No, you go upstairs or go into another room, close the door. I need to talk to you parents. What is the home environment like? Is it warm and supportive or is it toxic? Is it high conflict? Is it hostile? Not that parents intend to do this, but it just is. One, it’s that parents don’t realise their influence. Number two is there’s misunderstandings and there’s no benefit of the doubt. When I go into a family, it’s like, Wait, you misunderstood their intent. Now, the way… I mean, come on. It’s the way you send the message. Don’t shoot the messenger. But it’s a way of delivering the way of saying things, but giving that parent or that child the benefit of the doubt rather than jumping to conclusions. If you’re angry, a lot of parents, a lot of children have anger issues. So what I do is I institute panda time. I say, Listen, if you say panda time or I need a panda time, maybe sometimes you just maybe don’t even realise or don’t even know why.
[00:36:52.640] – Speaker 1
You’re just in a grumpy mood, an annoyance mood. So I was like, Now is not the time to talk to me because whatever you say, it doesn’t matter what it is, it’s not going to be received well. Then I tell families, If you call for a pandemic time, it’s not being rude, but it means, Listen, I need a break, or this is escalating, or it’s actually easier for children to say, Hey, pandemic time, don’t forget, rather than, Hey, why are you yelling at me? Hey, Mum, calm down. Dad, calm down. That’s disrespectful. That’s hard. But then if you say pandemic time, children need to separate for like 30 minutes. The rule is, though, 30 minutes, 40 minutes, then come back. Because when you’re yelling at people, you’re You’re not hearing them. So there’s no point and things escalating. But it’s really giving that benefit of the doubt. Wait, what did you just say? What do you mean by that? This is what I heard. A lot of times when I go in, parents would say certain things. I’m like, Okay, you know what you actually just said. This is what happened. Like, What? No, I didn’t mean that.
[00:37:48.340] – Speaker 1
I was like, That’s what you said, though, right? When you’re angry, watch what you say. It’s better for you to shut up and keep your mouth shut. Talk away because children will remember. You might say once or twice, but it might be so hurtful that it’s hard to recover.
[00:38:07.400] – Speaker 2
We can all remember things that were said to us as children, even as adults, right?
[00:38:13.100] – Speaker 1
Yeah.
[00:38:14.560] – Speaker 2
Those are really good, really helpful.
[00:38:17.240] – Speaker 1
But I’d like to really focus on the mental health of children, and especially for boys. That’s also why I have put a particular focus on men and boys. I put boys in front, right? Because More times than not, when there are issues going on, boys are not likely to talk about it. But you might see things cropping up in terms of their external behaviours. They might be more aggressive, they’re fighting back or they’re doing things that you can observe and see. But then that means something is going on. Boys are not really socialised to talk about things. Boys don’t cry. People are still having that mentality. But I’m sorry, everybody cries. Everybody gets hurt. Everybody gets offended. Everybody is happy. Everybody has all these emotions. But I just want parents, especially if you have boys, to put a little bit more attention to this. Because boys are falling behind on many levels. Education, many things, because the focus is on girls and women, which it should be. But alongside that, I’m just worried about the boys falling being behind. Also for girls, if they become more quiet, they tend to be internalised things and also self-harmed.
[00:39:39.000] – Speaker 1
Watch out for that. That means something is going on. Are you fighting in front of your children? Is there high conflict going on? Or even a divorce, and it might be amicable, but children will be affected. Just looking for the signs. Are they doing things that they like to do, but now they don’t? Are they pulling back a little bit, which seems a little bit… If your gut says, Wait, she He’s a little bit different now. He’s different now. What is it? Are children allowed to talk with you about it? Then also, are you talking badly about a parent or somebody else in front of them? Even like a joke, we all know it’s not a joke.
[00:40:16.740] – Speaker 2
I have a lot of friends who have boys. I’ve only had a daughter, and I know the joke is, especially when you work at camp, right? The kids are here, mum wants to know how it’s going, sends a text to son, how’s camp, and they’ve been gone for three weeks. There’s a million things happening. Life’s like they’re doing… And it’s like, good, fine. Like one-word responses.
[00:40:37.770] – Speaker 1
Well, that was the question. How’s it going? Fine.
[00:40:40.440] – Speaker 2
So can you maybe give just a quick piece of advice for parents of boys to be attuned, to engage, to come alongside them, to help them dry out some of the stuff that maybe needs to get talked about but isn’t?
[00:40:57.260] – Speaker 1
Okay. So I’d like to broaden this out as Well, everybody likes to be loved. Everybody likes a little bit of attention. Everybody needs to be acknowledged. Even with my university students, even with my grad students, whatever, I tell when I see that there’s issues going on, even within couples, I say, You know what? Text that person, Hi, every day. How long does it take you to text? Come on. You’re texting everybody else under the sun for how many thousands of text a day. It takes you what? One second, two seconds? Yeah, not much. Just say hi or take a picture or do something. Parents, you should just do it every day. It doesn’t necessarily need a response. But what does that mean to the other side? Hey, you were thinking about me. How many times have we reached out to somebody and they go, I was just thinking about you. That happens to me a lot, actually. I’m calling somebody or somebody calls me. I was literally going to call you. That’s so weird. How good that makes you feel. Also, hug your children every day. But if they’re away at camp, come on. You’re not thinking about your children?
[00:42:01.120] – Speaker 1
Especially for boys, just even asking them, Hey, what did you do today? Was that fun? Even asking them to expand on that. How are the kids? Who’s your friend? Getting to know who your friends are. Are they new? What are you doing? Did you learn anything today? Don’t make it educational. I just caught myself when I said, Did you learn anything today? I just caught myself.
[00:42:24.130] – Speaker 2
What’s a highlight from your day? Share with me a highlight from your day today.
[00:42:28.870] – Speaker 1
I remember that reminds me when you just said that is I had some Taiwanese judges come to my conference last year. It was interesting to hear the issues that they were facing. Again, it’s about adolescents and how can we deal with them because they’re family court judges. They see all these issues because it’s pretty serious when you come to court. Obviously, there’s a lot of tensions that’s going on. I was just thinking back of what parents ask. There are some parents who say, Well, I asked my children these questions. It’s like, Are you a teacher? They’re like, No. Okay, so then don’t be a teacher. Are you a police? They’re like, No. Then don’t be a police. Be a parent. Don’t quiz them. Don’t ask them what they got on a grade. Ask them, Was the test fair? Was it not? Because you know what? Sometimes tests are not fair. I’ve come across lots of tests that were not fair. I try to do fair tests to my students. I’ve learned quite a bit as a student when I was at U of Toronto, downtown campus. That was not easy for me. But it’s more of text your child every day and don’t expect a text back and even just say to them, Listen, I’m just thinking about you.
[00:43:44.430] – Speaker 1
No pressure You don’t need to text me anything back, or take a picture. Then you can go, Oh, my gosh, that’s so funny. Or if you know that they really love dogs, you just saw a dog somewhere, or you saw it online, or you saw a video, send it to them. Oh, my gosh, that’s so funny. You got to send it. It’s things like this rather than just waiting, because what happens is the children will then not call back. Then parents complain, My kids never call me. They never do anything. They only call for money. So if kids are listening to this, please text back to your parents. It literally takes one second, two seconds.
[00:44:22.240] – Speaker 2
Amazing. That’s so good. I just wanted to dive into another unique topic. I know you’ve been interested in and parents’ views on cannabis use and the impact on family dynamics and relationships. You have some research that’s focused on the Chinese-Canadian community in particular. But can you tell us what you’ve learned in general about how young people and parents are or are talking about substances? Share some of your concerns and what can parents do to be aware of that struggle that many young people have.
[00:44:56.880] – Speaker 1
I think there are several things I like parents to know about. Number one is do your research. What I’ve noticed, and I don’t want to talk too much about my data because we’re still data collecting, but there’s a lot of misunderstandings about cannabis. It’s some people confuse it with cocaine or hard drugs, and it’s not. That’s important. It is normalised in Canada. It’s used. A lot of children, even young children, have used it. Taboo Doing something is never a good thing because it makes it just more dangerous and more risky. Children are not likely to talk to you about it. Number one is actually just learning more about it and normalising it. It’s legalised in Canada, and we don’t need to get into the reasons and all that political stuff, but it’s on every other corner now. You see the cannabis store is cropped up all over the place.
[00:45:55.630] – Speaker 2
Sometimes as many as Tim Hortons.
[00:45:57.440] – Speaker 1
Yes. To me, it’s a bit scary. Honestly, because my concerns about cannabis, and I’ve only seen it once in my life, but my concerns is that cannabis is used in many ways, and that’s my concern. You can put them in gummies. They’re edible. It’s not smoking a cigarette. Then you have to… Some people don’t like the taste and all that. But now there’s cannabis oils. There’s lots of ways of using it for it to infuse into your body. To me, it’s more dangerous when it’s more friendly, user friendly to you. Oh, put them in brownies. Let’s have a party on that. It’s more dangerous in that way because it could be more socially acceptable. Number two, is that you don’t stereotype people using it. That is also difficult to say, Oh, my gosh, what kid is using it? Oh, stay away from that person. That’s not a good thing because children will pick their friends. Don’t pick their friends for them. There’s reasons why they’re together now. Same feathers flock together, that’s a different story. But then we try to increase the opportunities for other friends or whatever that might be. But be careful of how you message to others about using or not using.
[00:47:20.460] – Speaker 1
Another one that parents should be aware of is that cannabis can be addictive. People say, Oh, it’s not addictive. It’s also a gateway to harder drugs. Just to be careful. What people are doing and what I’m hearing… What I love is that because I’m so nosy, I talk to my students, I tell my students all the research that I’m doing, but I bounce my ideas off of them. I go, Tom, you tell me what’s on the ground level. What are you people doing at the undergraduate level, at the graduate level? I go, Is this true? Even though it’s still anecdotal. But what I have found is when I asked about cannabis use, is that people are vaping and that’s how they’re they’re using it. And not only that, is that they’re using it to go to sleep. And that is problematic. If you need something to do something, it’s problematic because you’ve become addicted to whatever that is. And if it starts interfering with you, if you stop using it, what happens? So maybe it’s not that bad of an addiction or whatever it might be. Some people are like, Oh, I need my coffee in the morning.
[00:48:27.320] – Speaker 1
But if you need cannabis, if you need to vape before you go to sleep to help you sleep, to me, that is highly problematic because you’re needing a drug to go to sleep. Then how do you… Some people can go cold turkey off of it, but then No. But then how are ways that you can do it and acknowledge that your efforts? Maybe it’s going to take you a month. There’s ways of doing this, and I’ve helped people get off of it and do things. But that’s a concern of mine. Our parents really Now, it’s not for you to go search your children’s rooms because if they find out, you broke that trust. But do you know the passwords to their phone? You should as parents. Do you know the passwords to their computer? You should. Don’t be searching it every day. But you’d say, You know what? This is an honour system, but you have to understand, here are the rules. But if I notice, for example, there’s this twin, two girls, 13 years old. I got called in because the mother was having a difficult time getting their children to get up in the morning, and it was screaming and yelling in the mornings.
[00:49:36.820] – Speaker 1
That’s a whole story that he should tell you about later. But one of the reasons was one day, the parents woke up and said, You know what? Our daughters are addicted to their phones. We’re going to take it away, and they only get 20 minutes a day. Now, they went from all you can have, buffet, cell phone, to 20 minutes. They were freaking out high conflict, obviously. Then when I came in, it was seen as punishment. But then when I came in, I actually just said, Are you addicted to your phone? Yes, yes, yes. Then one daughter started crying, I can’t live without my phone. I can’t live without my phone. I have to have my phone. I go, Wow. I go, Listen, now I’ve talked with your parents, and we’re not taking your phone as punishment. But as you can see, addiction is a problem. We want to see, is it really… How big of a problem is it? This is not a consequence, a punishment for anything, but we just want to see, to what extent is that? Do you understand? They’re like, Yes. I go, Okay, tell me, how long do you think you can go without your phone.
[00:50:30.700] – Speaker 1
So one said a week, something like this, and the other one said, I can’t ever. I go, Okay, so then you know what? Then it’s even more important for us to do this experiment. Let’s just try. Can we just try? And they’re like, Yes, let’s just try. I’ll come back in one week. Because they lived far from me. When I went there, and it was a week later, I said, Okay, so how did it go? I told the parents, Let them have their phone afterwards. We have to test them. We have to see what’s going on. The one girl, the one sister who said, Yeah, one week, I think it was maybe three or four days or whatever, but she was able to go away from it for quite some time. But I also asked the other one, Why couldn’t you… The other one who was really addicted, I actually also asked her, Why? She was, Because it was my friend. This is where we chat. We talk about everything together. I don’t want to miss out. This is how we spend time together. When I came back, I said, Hey, how long did it take?
[00:51:30.000] – Speaker 1
She’s like, Oh, she started crying. She’s like, I couldn’t do it. It was only two days, right? Two day and a half days or something. I go, Wow. She’s like, What? I go, Congratulations. She’s like, Congratulations. I was like, That is amazing. She’s like, Amazing. Why? I go, Don’t you remember what you said before? You said you couldn’t even live without your phone. You said 20 minutes or not even. She’s like, Wow, you’re right. I go, That’s really amazing. Actually, you were not as addicted as you thought. She was like, Yeah. I go, Okay. Now, did your friend notice that you weren’t in the group chat? I go, Remember that was the reason why you wanted to be on it? Then she actually said, No, nobody realised it. I’m like, Okay, that’s sad. But see, it’s not as important as you think. Now, it is important to be in the group chat. I understand that, but not constantly all all the time the way she was on it. That was an eye opener for her. I was like, Wow, actually, I’m not missing out. They didn’t even miss me. They didn’t even realise I was gone for two days.
[00:52:43.440] – Speaker 1
It’s really just observing your children and just seeing… I mean, if you’re having these fights or these conflicts or disagreements, what is it really about? Then also be self-critical. Are you also engaging in that behaviour? You can’t say, Well, when you’re an adult, you also can smoke. What? No. Then don’t let them see you doing it. If you’re on your screen, don’t put your phone away. Mealtimes, create new rules.
[00:53:11.680] – Speaker 2
Yeah, it’s so good. I mean, just even there, you were giving very practical, helpful advice to parents. Our conversation has been laced full of helpful, useful things, things to think about, tools for parents. It’s been so good. Literally, I’ve been writing a whole bunch of it down. But I just wonder, as we’re coming to the end of our time, you may be reiterating something you’ve shared or something new. If you could just give one piece of advice to parents or adult mentors, adults that care for kids, if they’re not parents and they’re listening, who want to shape resilient, kind, curious kids, what would you share with them just as we wrap up our conversation today?
[00:53:55.200] – Speaker 1
That’s really difficult because so many things would come to mind. But I think the one thing I would say is really be there for them. Do they really know that you will be there for them? Can they trust you? If they’re in trouble, can I call you? Will you come? And not just come and be responsive, but are you sensitive to their issues? For happy times or good times? Will you be happy for me? For me? Or if I’m going to be sad and I’m very upset, can you allow me to be upset, at least It’s going to take a little while, and then help me? Help me, not do it for me. Can you help me figure out what the solution is best for me? Not for you. Don’t tell me it’s not a big deal. It’s a big deal to me. We can remember when We’re a kids. Oh, my gosh, it was such a big deal. It’s like nothing right now. But they don’t know that this is their world. But do you acknowledge that? So be there for your children. If they’re talking to you, literally put everything away. You’d be amazed.
[00:54:57.840] – Speaker 1
It’s quality and quanta. It’s You want to spend as much time as you want with your children, of course, but then it’s quality over quantity. We hear this a lot, of course. This is nothing new, but really, is it quality? If your child walks into the room, are you happy to see them or not? If I were to film on I have a camera. Can I see? What’s your reaction? Also, you have to remember, 85, 90% of our communication is nonverbal. What’s your body language? Are you like, Oh, that kid. You’re like, Oh, no, I love all my children. No, come on. They might be like, Oh, it’s going to be another battle. Benefit of the doubt. Remember what I said before? Give the child the benefit of the doubt, but then be there for them and be ready, whatever it might be. Can they count on you? Then just even that, just not even really doing anything, that gives the children a sense of a secure base. Then they can explore their world. This goes back to Bowlby attachment theory. When the child is one Eight years old, but this carries on through every age stage, all the way through.
[00:56:04.960] – Speaker 1
Are you that secure base? Even for counsellors, maybe things are not going well at home. Parents, whatever the issues, complexity, you As a counsellor, that’s why a lot of kids have great counsellors. Like, Oh, my gosh, I remember that counselor’s so great. Why? Because they’re engaged because you’re there for them. But you also notice those who are off to the side or notice the bullying, or maybe it’s not bullying or something, something. Why is that kid? Give a little attention, or are they just doing it for attention? Well, then find ways for the other children also, not just you and them, other children. How do you get everybody included? How do you make it a bit more creative? How do you make sure that you give everybody a chance to show themselves and strengthen their abilities. Is it always one kid, always the leader? Well, then try to share those opportunities and then be encouraging and getting everybody to go, go, go, go, yeah, and giving that support. It doesn’t always have to be you. It can be other people.
[00:57:04.300] – Speaker 2
Sue, you have given us so much to think about. It’s been such an encouraging conversation. When we get in conversations about parenting and young people, one of the things I love is Well, I love it and find it challenging, too, is some of the best advice is so simple on one hand, yet so profound, right? To just be there. It sounds simple. The impact that can have when we really embrace it and take it. And it’s not easy to do. It’s a consistency. It’s over time. It’s showing up in every day in different ways, whether that’s, like you said earlier, the 10-second text to actually stopping our day when we notice something’s wrong and entering into a conversation when we technically don’t have time for it, or getting involved in hobbies that our kids like and finding out information about them and having conversations, or like you said, taking the effort to bring people along into the story as well and having our kids find other adults that care for them to support them. Being there is so easy to say, so profound to do, but can make a huge difference.
[00:58:14.200] – Speaker 1
You hear a lot There are stories where they’re adult children and a parent has passed away and they would say, My dad was never proud of me or my mum was never proud of me or they didn’t really love me. It’s like, actually they were because the parent would tell everybody else how proud they are. So please tell your children that you’re proud of them, that you love them. A lot of children don’t hear this. In some cultures, it’s not good to express the emotions. I’m sorry, you better express it. Okay. And hug your children. Everybody. Hug everybody every day.
[00:58:44.700] – Speaker 2
There Recharge your homework, listeners. Right now, grab your phone, text your kids, and just send them a random text telling them how much you love them. There’s a great practical follow-up from our conversation today. Sue, thank you so much for your time. It was great and invigorating inspiring conversation. Thank you for that today.
[00:59:03.080] – Speaker 1
Thank you for inviting me.
[00:59:06.040] – Speaker 2
Well, that’s it for today’s episode. If Dr. Susan’s insights helped you think differently about parenting, communication, and supporting the kids in your life, be sure to check out muskokawoods.com. There you’ll find a blog post with key takeaways from this conversation and a link to listen again. You can also explore how Muskoka Woods is helping young people grow in character, confidence, and connexion through unforgettable experiences rooted in community and care. Don’t forget to subscribe to Shaping Our World and share this episode with someone you’d appreciate a thoughtful, research-backed approach to raising the next generation.
