[00:00:12.380] – Speaker 1
Hi, everyone. It’s Chris Tompkins. Welcome to the Shaping Our World podcast. My goal is to invite you into a conversation that will leave you more confident in understanding and inspiring the young people in your life. Each episode, we talk with leading experts and offer relevant resources to dive deeper into the lives of our youth today. Today, we have Dave Krocker on the show. Dave is the head of Rosseau Lake College, which is actually located just up the road from us at Muskoka Woods. Dave is an educator who brings his wealth of experience at international schools, along with his spirit of educational innovation to the small independent school where outdoor education is paramount. Dave’s goal in education is to grant students the skills, postures, and literacies they need to move ahead in education and in life, which is largely achieved through collaboration. It’s a great conversation with Dave today and his take on what makes RLC’s approach to education a little bit different than maybe some of the other schools that you’re familiar with. He gives us a great amount of tips on how we can build more experience in learning into our kids’ lives. Let’s take a listen as we talk with Dave Krocker and how to educate our kids in today’s world.
[00:01:31.880] – Speaker 1
Before we meet our guest, a quick word about an opportunity at Muskoka Woods. Starting as a staff member here, I found it to be more than just a job. I discovered a pathway to personal and professional growth. We are committed to intentional staff development, providing training, and building a network that can propel your career forward. Imagine working where you’re nurtured to grow with access to amazing facilities and staff care events. If you’re seeking a role that prepares you for what’s next, visit jobs.muskokawoods.com for more details. Now, let’s get into the heart of our show. Dave, welcome. It’s great to have you join us.
[00:02:13.780] – Speaker 2
Thanks for having me, Chris.
[00:02:15.170] – Speaker 1
Dave and I are essentially neighbours. Dave’s at Rossa Lake College, which is probably about a kilometre-and-a-half down the highway from Muskoka Woods. It’s great for us to have him with us on the show and to hear a little bit about what’s going on just down the Dave and I are friends, and we love the camaraderie we share back and forth between our two organizations.
[00:02:36.550] – Speaker 2
Absolutely.
[00:02:37.840] – Speaker 1
So, Dave, help us get to know you a little bit better. What shaped your world when you were growing up?
[00:02:42.900] – Speaker 2
Well, when I grew up in Calgary, Alberta, in the 1970s, dating myself a bit there, but my world was really centred around sports. I would say specifically football and basketball were my passions. And downhill skiing, I was able to call the Rockies my backyard. And those outdoor adventures of navigating the rivers and streams and the hiking trails, whether it’s in kayaks or mountain biking, or in my own two feet, were really a big part of shaping my world. The other thing I would say, too, was I just always was really drawn to role models. And I think back to some of the athletic coaches I had in my life, some teachers that really stood out. And then that clearly helped dictate my path of becoming an educator, just seeing the impact that you can have on young people in that learning journey.
[00:03:42.970] – Speaker 1
Can see why we’re friends, Dave, because my influences were very similar from playing a lot of sports and role models as well. You don’t have the Rockies as your backdrop anymore, so I’m not sure how you ski much in Ontario, but what’s shaping your world today? Are you still into some of the sports and other things? Tell us a little bit about what you like to do for fun and in your world, how do you spend your time?
[00:04:07.360] – Speaker 2
Absolutely. Getting out under the water whenever I can, whether it’s boating or canoeing, kayaking, swimming. I just love being on the water. We’re very lucky in this region of Muskoka and Seguin to have some beautiful hiking trails whenever I can be out walking with my dog and my wife. It’s a happy day, and I love to read. I just think that portal into that other universe through literature is something I’ve always enjoyed from a very young age up until now. And I think the last bit, too, is just continuing to watch my two daughters grow and building on the wonderful foundations my wife, Karina and I, have provided for them, and as they start to navigate their world around them as adults.
[00:04:53.060] – Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s great. That’s so encouraging. Tell us what you’re doing now that’s shaping the world of kids and young people.
[00:04:59.520] – Speaker 2
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it’s really ensuring that students today have that immersive experience in nature. One of my favorite books that I refer to all the time is Richard Louves, The Last Child in the Woods, and just about the great nature deficit disorder that we’re seeing in the world around us being linked to the heightened incidences of anxiety and depression in our youth. So I love our work here about providing an immersive experience in nature. And I think the work that I’m involved in right now is very much reminding students and their parents that balance and developing a true sense of self with a courageous creative mindset is absolutely essential. I think my work has really focused with my team of educators here that we always remember that those soft skills that have often been know, dubbed as maybe less important or more important than ever. It’s like the work you do, Chris, and where I just, again, our friendship and the respect I have for you in Muskoka Woods is the work around leadership and character development That those core values of kindness and respect, humility, compassion are vital for success and happiness in our world.
[00:06:24.400] – Speaker 2
And I think they’re more important than ever.
[00:06:26.390] – Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, building on that, and I know you’ve unpacked a few of those things that guide your role at Rosseau Lake College. But maybe you zoom out again a bit and feel free to reinforce some of those things that you already shared. But throughout your career, you’ve always been ahead of the curve when it comes to trends in education. What’s a hot topic or an educational trend that you’re seeing right now that maybe reflects our cultural zeitgeist? What should be on our radar as parents in terms of how we’re seeking to educate our kids? What jumps out to you that maybe the general parent or whatever might not be looking at or paying attention to right now?
[00:07:10.310] – Speaker 2
Ai, artificial intelligence.
[00:07:12.520] – Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
[00:07:13.200] – Speaker 2
It’s massive. There’s so many thoughts around this right now, but here’s the bottom line. We can’t fear it or reject it. It’s already in motion. I was at a national conference earlier this year with a panel of experts from across North America around AI and our world today. If we’re not already using it and or aware of it or managing it, I guess, as a better verb, we’re behind. I think what we are absolutely obligated to do is to raise awareness of this tool for students and parents and how to manage it and utilize it for our benefit. It’s not going away. It’s growing exponentially, and that’s not to be fearful. It’s a reality. So we have to understand what it is. We have to understand how we can use it and when we don’t want to use it. But I always love the Silver Lining and things that the good news is more than ever. And this panel of experts that are helping create AI platforms are saying that the human connection, the connection to our natural world is probably more essential and needed than ever in modern society.
[00:08:35.780] – Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. So, Dave, before we get into experiential learning and just what you were referring to there at the end, I want to ask just a quick question on AI, because sometimes it’s this big topic for parents or others. And can you maybe suggest a few practical ways that you might see AI beginning to shape some of the educational experience? I know for myself, I have a good friend in Australia. I was there a few years ago, and her job was to help the education system in Australia to use AI for grading papers. She was the one going in and helping input and mark and go through this whole process so that teachers could use AI to grade things and move forward. She said it was going to save a ton of time and effort in the marking process. And I remember thinking, Oh, my goodness, that feels so far advanced. So what are some of the things that you might hear in the conference or have known, like our practical ways that AI might be shaping education in the future?
[00:09:46.830] – Speaker 2
The number one thing that comes in the discussions that I’ve been involved in recently is about authenticity around work and ensuring academic honesty and that naughty word of plagiarism. So the work that we’re doing in a lot of independent schools that I’m aware of is a lot of extensive work around how to cite sources properly. And this is nothing new. We all know this as students that maybe were privileged enough to go to university and these things through, whether it’s MLA or APA, citation styles. It becomes more important now to be able to identify and recognize the work that you have been citing and to allow people to use things like ChatGPT as a research tool. It’s got an incredible amount of information available to students. And again, we want them in this world to use the tools that are available to them, but with just a high degree of ethical responsibility, and hence again, to how to cite or document sources. Another area that we’re really interested and excited about is through innovation and how to use various tools that can further create things, whether it’s advanced work with AutoCAD or design, a lot of students involved in fashion or architecture.
[00:11:16.570] – Speaker 2
It’s really opening up some exciting opportunities for them in those regards.
[00:11:22.590] – Speaker 1
So interesting. And I think it’s, like you mentioned, one of the things as we get more educated in it and understand it, not not to fear it, but to be able to see the virtue in it and how we can use it for our own benefit. And so, yeah, that’s really interesting. Jumping back in how you talked about even more so now the ability for us to be immersed in education in the setting. And as we’ve mentioned, your school is just down the road from Muskoka Woods. We’re both on the shores of Lake Rosseau and beautiful Muskoka. And that setting lends itself to experiential learning and outdoor education, which something that both of us take advantage of up here, and I know it’s a focus for Rosseau Lake College. Can you talk a little bit about what sets your school apart in terms of how students learn and what are some of the examples of experiential learning at RLC?
[00:12:15.340] – Speaker 2
I think one of the pieces is that are intentionally small size really allows for all students to have what we like to call differentiation from that attention from either their mentors or their teachers, house parents, And I think that really helps students identify areas for growth and areas of strength in their learning. And I think one of the other pieces that Rosseau Lake College does a great job around in experiential learning is that like all schools, we ensure that the curriculum for the Ontario Secondary School diploma is covered, but we integrate the seven generations, teachings, and land-based learning throughout the curriculum. This allows a high degree of authenticity, for their learning, and they see, therefore, the relevance of it, that it is real, that it is tangible. Like you, Chris, over at Muskoka Woods, that our unique campus and environment is what we love to call the third teacher, that whether it’s tapping maple up in the spring, whether it’s building Quinzis that they actually do sleep in out in the field in the back 40, we call it here, and understanding through chemistry how the snow molecules form and offer such a high degree of insulation or some of the real-world applicable teachings that they identify.
[00:13:36.510] – Speaker 2
Why does the SAP run? What are the nutritional benefits of a lot of the plants that we are harvesting under the teachings of Dawn, the Indigenous Seven Generations Program Coordinator. We do things here like Discovery Week, where over the course of an entire year, students are exploring an area of passion and interest, and they develop a project that then we spend an entire week presenting to the entire school what we have built over the course of that year. That, again, demonstrates an area of expertise and passion of each student. We start the year off with out trips where the entire school by grade level goes on various trips for five days, building relationships and connecting in nature off campus and demonstrating an awareness of the skills that we have created here in our outdoor education program and applying them in a new environment and context. We offer a may intensive term that is very much allowing them to see what it would be like in the post-secondary environment where they have one course that is a very hands-on experience, hence experiential learning, where they focus on that course for the May term. There’s a lot of travel involved.
[00:15:02.900] – Speaker 2
We would like to see them achieve different certifications, things like getting their Patty through a scuba course or getting a boat license, wanting to increase their employability over the summer. Those are some of the examples that I think we do very well here at Rosteley College around experiential learning.
[00:15:24.610] – Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s amazing. I know one of the things that we’ve been hearing from so many of the teachers and educators and even some levels of administration is, as we’re coming out of the pandemic a number of years ago, one of the tensions was young people learning at home and wanting to get back in the classroom and just that over-emphasis on classroom learning, and sometimes at the cost of field trips or other things like you’ve just shared. For budget and for a whole bunch of other reasons, I think we’re seeing a little bit of the push back into that classroom setting. But as you’ve shared, and I think you called it the third teacher, I love that thinking, there are so many things that we learn through the education process that isn’t just textbook and teacher material in a classroom. And so you guys really emphasize experiential learning. Why is that learning really significant? And how do you see that really impact the students themselves?
[00:16:27.670] – Speaker 2
Yeah, an outstanding question. I think it’s that idea that they see the relevance of their learning and that there’s a sense of purpose and identifying early in their learning journeys that these are transferable skills that really do have impact for life. When they see a real-world application, in my opinion and experience, that that’s that passion and that spark that instills that love of learning for life, and hence what we love to call lifelong learners. Circling back to the whole conversation around AI, if all of the knowledge and a lot of the Information sources are at their fingertips, we start to question, well, what role does education and what some people say traditional schools and classrooms even hold anymore? And I think that’s exactly it. That’s our opportunity. It’s our job to make sure that we are continuing to light the fire in students to want to learn for life. And that’s what experiential learning does.
[00:17:39.590] – Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s amazing. When we can make connections to what we’re learning to real, tangible life things, we all know that it lasts a whole lot longer than just sitting in a classroom and hearing about it. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. And that’s what we see here through our schools program. Students are able to try new activities and get away from their normal context and take all of the learning that’s happened. One thing you mentioned earlier on, Dave, too, that’s important to me is the education process, helping our kids grow up is about their knowledge and what they learn, but it’s also about who they are and their character. So much of that is shaped in different experiences that go beyond the classroom, are part of the classroom experience and part of the learning as well. But we’re not just shaping minds, we’re shaping hearts and souls of young people. I think that’s an important thing that can’t be missed.
[00:18:39.480] – Speaker 2
I like how you said that.
[00:18:44.250] – Speaker 1
Let’s take a moment to talk about Muskoka Wood’s CEO Leadership Program. This isn’t just a summer program. It’s a stepping stone for your future. Teenagers can earn a grade 11 high school credit or complete community service hours, all while developing leadership skills in a supportive environment. Our team of passionate staff ensures every CEO has a remarkable and educational experience. Interested in joining this July or August? Find out more at muskokawoods.com. One of the strengths of Rosseau Lake College is its diversity. And your student population, in fact, reflects 21 different countries countries. How does this shape the student experience?
[00:19:33.350] – Speaker 2
Well, exactly about growing minds and hearts and souls, Chris, is how you said it, by eliminating bias and opening up perspectives, by That diversity allows our young people to marvel at the beauty of the world and culture and the spirit of humanity. That when we bring the world into our campus, we see that in a world that’s exponentially changing with AI and tech, that in virtual reality, the reality we want to hang on to earnestly, and I think carefully, is the mosaic of human beings and the teachings of cultures and how they connect to one another and how there are core essential values that we all can live by. And I think what I see in a campus like this when we have such a diverse representation of people is It’s around courage and bravery, because I know growing up that racism and bigotry and things like misogyny are out of fear and ignorance. And when we educate our students about people, right? There’s no misguided representations anymore that they learn firsthand. What makes people tick and how are we similar?
[00:20:53.690] – Speaker 1
As you mentioned, Indigenous culture and learning philosophies are a cornerstone of programming at Rosseau Lake College. As you mentioned, you have what’s called the Seven Generations Initiative, which is named after Indigenous teaching that emphasizes the responsibility of every generation to consider the impact of their decision on the next seven generations. There’s a TP on campus that was gifted by and is maintained by the Wasexing First Nation. Can you talk about the importance of underlining First Nation culture in the programming and education at Rosseau Lake College? What impact do you think that has in this time of truth and reconciliation in Canada?
[00:21:36.110] – Speaker 2
Absolutely. I think the key benefit for everybody is we see and live how reciprocity and nature are so critical. I think we see and live by the idea there are universal values connecting us to mother earth and all cultures. And really to the point about in this time of truth and reconciliation in Canada, what we’re doing is the heart of the TRC, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, right? Is the idea that education and truth come first, and then there’s the action of young people to make better in our world. And I think when you look at the seven grandfather teachings of love, humility, respect, honesty, bravery, wisdom, and truth, isn’t this what we want all people to live their lives by?
[00:22:34.950] – Speaker 1
I also read in an interview that you had that you said, and this is a quote, We need to be building innovators, creators, thinkers, problem solvers, communicators, and just as important, if not more so, we need joyful good people. We’ve all heard, and so many of our listeners we’ve talked about a lot on the show know that anxiety is at an all time high among young people. And many of our former guests have talked about things like isolation and the fact that kids don’t really have time to discover who they are as contributing factors to the rise in anxiety and some of the mental health challenges we see with young people. Do you think the nature of learning at Rosseau Lake College, collaboration, self-direction, discovery, helps contribute to the student’s well-being? And how so? What do you think is happening on campus that is really contributing to positive mental health in people?
[00:23:30.850] – Speaker 2
That’s a great question and so key. I’m going to go back again to one piece about our intentionally small size. I’ve been doing this research about what are perfect community sizes. And there’s a gentleman named Dunbar who has done some very interesting work around sizes of communities and what is that perfect number and ratio that you’re looking for. And there’s a lot of interesting data to read through that. But that idea about numbers of 150 jumping up to 500 have different pockets and opportunities. So just a 150 students, I think that intentionally small size allows for those authentic relationships and connections to each other. And I think that really helps with a sense of student’s well-being. You referenced the anxiousness. We did an all staff read this summer, a recent book that’s caught a lot of attention, it’s called The Anxious Generation. And we are developing new policies around devices for adults and students on our campus that I think will have a very positive impact on trying to mitigate and reduce anxiety that we know is clearly linked to device dependency and social media. I think increasing our natural connections. We did some exercises around tree bathing, grounding, being barefoot in the grass and in the woods, wading through the water was incredibly important.
[00:25:08.540] – Speaker 2
I think really encouraging through our mentorship program that sense of belonging and the authentic relationships that we really want to cultivate. I think little things like gathering in a circle every single morning outside, regardless of whether, makes us. And it provides a sense of purpose. It is very much based on the Anishinaabic belief in a circle, there’s no hierarchy, and that we are interconnected. I think those are some of the things we do here to really help manage and reduce anxiety for students.
[00:25:42.280] – Speaker 1
That’s amazing. So I have a two-part question, and I want to start with your perspectives for teachers. So we would have a bunch of teachers that may be listening to this podcast or people who are in that educational space, or maybe even like youth group leaders or whatever. And you shared really the backbone of your philosophy at Rosseau Lake College around diversity, around emersion in nature, around indigenous culture, around the size, around all this stuff that is really important to how you approach learning. And for teachers or youth leaders or whatever who are going, Well, I’m not always in control of those things, or I would love to do that, but I can’t, or how can we take some of these principles? And we could suggest, Well, come teach at Rosseau Lake College, or different things like that. But beyond that, how could teachers, educators, people that work with young people, maybe take some of these things and practically apply them to their own context. Do you have a couple of pointers or ideas around that that might be helpful?
[00:26:51.250] – Speaker 2
I think the base of it all is through a philosophy, I guess, is what I would call it around curriculum, and that is understanding by design, often dubbed UBD. And what the core of that are two pieces that we create essential questions and then enduring understandings for the curriculum. And what that does is it invites not only interdisciplinary opportunities, also referred to as cross-curricular programming, but the idea that everything begins with a question. And that exploration is absolutely key. And that, again, is that igniting student interest and passion to be able to explore outside of the traditional boxes and parameters that we see in very traditional classrooms. So for me, understanding by design and approaching curriculum that way is essential.
[00:27:54.390] – Speaker 1
That’s amazing. It’s really encouraging. And I think one of the things that stands out to me is is a lot of the things that you do, like you said, understanding by design is the intentionality that you have. You don’t stumble across a lot of these values and virtues that you’ve built into Rosseau Lake College accidentally. You have to plan for them. And so whatever the context is, is how might you incorporate indigenous teaching or perspective into a learning lesson? If you’re a teacher, how do you get kids outside? You don’t You don’t necessarily need a field trip or a budget to go to the parking lot to explore something about math. I think there’s intentionality that can come as you think about a classroom setting and what you’re hoping to accomplish with the students. But like you said, it’s intentionality, it’s understanding what the objectives are and then how to build an experience or a curriculum from that. I think that’s really helpful. Now, can you speak to parents a bit about how do we as parents whose kids are largely in traditional classrooms or in settings, how can we help them to have a more immersive, experiential learning that maybe goes beyond the classroom?
[00:29:13.080] – Speaker 1
What opportunities would you suggest? What can we do for parents who maybe want to enrich the learning experience beyond the traditional classroom?
[00:29:24.020] – Speaker 2
It’s funny because I say this with a large degree of bias, but the research in my, I guess, 31 years as an educator confirms it, read for pleasure. And I often say that it’s one of the greatest portals to other universes in that creative mind Unfortunately, we are seeing what I would call as a crisis in the decline of students that read for pleasure. And I don’t mean reading the chemistry textbook or a section for social studies, reading for pleasure. And it’s often I ask a student, What are you reading these days? And they said, Well, nothing. I don’t like reading. And I do respond with a line, and it does sound a little sarcastic, but it’s like there’s no such thing as people that don’t like reading. You don’t have the right book in your hands. Because we all remember a book that we loved reading at one time in our life. And then, unfortunately, a lot of times this thing we call education, squash as a love of reading. That to me opens up the mindset. I think for parents is going on walks and getting into nature as much as possible continues to ground students and kids and families, and again opens up those pathways that we have been speaking about in this podcast.
[00:30:42.400] – Speaker 2
I think it’s asking questions and continuing to allow our children to dream of possibilities, ask them questions. And I think there’s an interesting opportunity to watch documentaries, use technology, and it doesn’t always have to be the traditional things on Netflix, but documentaries are fabulous, and it opens up new pathways of interest that maybe they didn’t know about before. What you’re doing, Chris, with podcasts, listen to podcasts together as a family. Maybe it’s on a road trip. They’re wonderful. And there’s family passion projects. It could be around something that is really, really important to your family. It could be about a recycling program or other aspects of water conservation, gardening, how to train your dog to be more responsible in the house or on walks or whatever it is. But I think those family passion projects are really cool, and I’ve seen some really great examples of those in terms of building the family relationship and igniting, again, that passion for learning in young people.
[00:31:49.690] – Speaker 1
Man, those are all fantastic suggestions. I love what you said about reading. I discovered reading, especially fiction, later on in life. And people ask, what’s shaping my thinking as the CEO of a company like Muskoka Woods? I often say what I read on the side, and it’s not always the leadership development books or how to win friends and influence people or all the different thinking books. It’s actually fiction. I love it, and it shapes a lot of my thinking beyond… People think it’s just for entertainment, but man, it teaches me to look at the world differently and understand story and perspective. I remember, like you said, Dave, thinking, I enjoyed reading growing up, but I said, I got to wait till I’m done school because you have to read so much for school. I wish I had read more fiction and other stuff when I was going through my schooling process, high school and post-secondary as well, because I know how much it shapes my thinking and the richness of the way that I approach even some of the practical things that you deal with leading an organization. I love that, and that’s a great encouragement for young people.
[00:33:09.010] – Speaker 1
I love what you said. You just haven’t read the right book yet if you think you don’t love reading because when you, we get into some good stuff. You and I could probably talk for a whole other podcast about some books we would recommend other people to read. Absolutely. But that’s a great suggestion. Sort of as we wrap up, Dave, today, and thank you so much for your perspective and sharing all the things that you have with us today. It’s been really enriching for me even to listen, and I know I’ve heard some of this from you before, but as someone who values unique learning methods and has had so much experience doing what you do, do you have any thoughts, words of encouragement for parents who are working through some academic challenges with their kids where they just feel like it’s an uphill grind? Any words of encouragement or tips or thoughts for them as they’re navigating that world today?
[00:34:00.120] – Speaker 2
Absolutely. Read. And it can be anything. It can be poetry. It can be a magazine on dirt bikes. It can be anything at all but forge time to read. Everybody loved learning something at one time. Really try to dig in and have dinner together. Sit down together at the dinner table as much as you can during the week. I know we live busy lives, but it’s amazing to see the correlation between families that are successful with academic challenges and those that are really struggling and little things that may seem insignificant come up over and over again. And families that have the opportunity to sit together and have dinner is big because that’s where the conversations about what the sparks are, what are the areas of interest, and to really help fuel those. We spoke about it a little earlier. Don’t treat tech as the evil monster, educate it and understand it, bring the elephant into the room, and help navigate it together. And the number one thing I’d always encourage all of us as adults is to remain as role models, make the boundaries clear, and that the consequences, again, are clear, consistent, and fair.
[00:35:21.260] – Speaker 2
They need us to be on a pedestal and to help guide them, and I think that’s really important.
[00:35:26.560] – Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s great. All those were very Insightful and encouraging. And really appreciate your time today, Dave. And for those listeners, if you are considering an alternative education experience for your kids, you should check out Rosseau Lake College just down the road. Great opportunity that does great job really helping students become the young people and the adults that we need and want in this world. So thanks, Dave, for all that you do over there and for your time today. It’s been really insightful and really helpful. So thank you.
[00:36:00.690] – Speaker 2
Well, my thanks to you, Chris, and appreciate the relationship that we have and the mutual work that we’re involved in because it’s excellent.
[00:36:10.410] – Speaker 1
Thanks, Dave.
[00:36:11.160] – Speaker 2
Thanks so much.
