[00:00:12.580] – Speaker 1
Well, hey, I’m Chris Tompkins. Welcome back to the Shaping Our World podcast, where we explore the ideas and insights that help us better understand the next generation. My goal is to invite you into a conversation that will leave you more confident in inspiring the young people in your life. In the last episode, we kicked off a two-part series on Generation Z or Z, depending on where you’re from, with Dr. Tim Elmore, exploring who they are and how we can better lead and support them in today’s changing world. Today, in part two, We’re digging in even deeper with brand new research conducted right here at Muskoka Woods. On this episode, I’m joined by Jennifer Deal. Jennifer is a senior research scientist at the USA Marshall Center for Effective Organizations. She’s also leading expert on generational research, with her work being featured in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, The Economist, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and more. For over two decades, she has studied what drives people at work and how generations think, lead, and grow. In partnership with Muskoka Woods, Jennifer led a groundbreaking research study on Gen Z staff, which explored their beliefs about leadership, work, purpose, boundaries, and what they need to thrive.
[00:01:29.800] – Speaker 1
Today, she joins us to unpack what this generation is saying and what leaders, parents, and mentors need to know. This episode continues the conversation we started last time through another data-driven lens. I work at Muskoka Woods as a CEO, but my journey began in 1996 as a member of the summer staff, and it was life-changing. Working at Muskoka Woods is not just about the job. You get housing, meals, and the chance to live in one of the most beautiful places in Ontario, Lake Rosseau. More than that, you’ll be part of a community that values your development and well-being. With access to our facilities and special staff events. Ready for a career that offers so much more? Visit jobs.muskokawoods.com to learn more. Now, let’s delve into today’s conversation. Welcome, Jennifer. It’s great to have you.
[00:02:30.000] – Speaker 2
Thanks for having me.
[00:02:30.790] – Speaker 1
Just as we get going, I’m curious, how did you get started in working with different generations and the work you’re doing now?
[00:02:38.380] – Speaker 2
Actually, it’s a funny story. I was just rolling off of a project looking at global leadership, how do you help people become good global leaders? A friend of mine asked me to come to a meeting. I was at the Center for Creative Leadership at the time. We were hearing a lot of things from people in organizations about how incredibly difficult young people were, how they weren’t doing what they were supposed to do, how they were difficult to work with, how they were asking for unreasonable things, how they appeared to be unprepared for the workplace. Realized that this was 1998 when I had this conversation. So this friend asked me to come to a meeting, and I said, I’m not actually interested because I think generational differences are silly. But you do things for friends, right? You show up and you places and you do stuff. I showed up at the meeting, and I was fascinated by all of the stereotypes that were coming up in this meeting. That the things that my peers were hearing from clients were just so completely different from my experience of people of different generations, because the complaints weren’t just about young people, though, honestly, most of them were about young people.
[00:03:54.480] – Speaker 2
A lot of the complaints were also about older people, and it was so very different from my personal experience that I said, this is actually a really interesting question. People have all of these stereotypes and beliefs about different generations, and I have no idea where they’re coming from, and are they even true? So that’s actually how I got involved in this long time ago.
[00:04:18.960] – Speaker 1
And I think that’s a great intro to our conversation because there are so many things that you hear people talking about and the generation, younger generation. When I was younger, it was parents complaining about this, that, or the next thing. It seems like every once in a while, and people that were in the room with you that day start to get really panicky about the next generation. You’re hearing that a lot about Gen Z and even starting to creep into Gen Alpha. Why do you think people get so worked up about who the young generation are and what’s it about them? Why is this a big deal for people to talk about?
[00:04:57.080] – Speaker 2
Well, there are a lot of reasons, and it on the perspective people are coming from. At home, people get upset about it because they think in terms of how people should behave, and they see shifts, and that upsets them. In the workplace, part of what people are thinking about is, what do I need people to do? What we see a lot of are people attributing differences to generations that have nothing to do with generations and are actually about level in the organization. What happens in organizations is that as you move up organizations, you get older as well. What you find is that people who are higher in organizations tend to be older than people lower in organizations. What people tend to do is they tend to attribute the differences that they see to generation, when in reality, it’s actually a function of your level because people at different levels have different needs and different expectations and different goals because of the particular role they’re in. They essentially ascribe these differences to generation when it really has absolutely nothing to do with generation. I still remember one situation where we were listening to a manager complain about their direct reports, about things their direct reports were doing and what they needed to do and how they needed to work harder and saying, What was wrong with these young people?
[00:06:27.300] – Speaker 2
They just weren’t willing to put in a hard day’s work. It was a real problem. The person was 26, and they were talking about 24-year-olds. They were from the same generation.
[00:06:39.860] – Speaker 1
Yeah, right.
[00:06:41.820] – Speaker 2
What was clear was that what these 26-year-olds were truly ascribing to generation had nothing to do with generation. It had to do with differences in expectations. What happens is when young people come into the workforce, people who are in higher levels within the organization say, Oh, no, they’re not doing what I need them to do. And they ascribe it again to generation rather than to level in the organization.
[00:07:08.440] – Speaker 1
And I’m just curious as you’re unpacking that, what are some of the things that you think the older generation today actually think about young people? Before we get into debunking some of the stereotypes, where’s that coming from? What words, phrases are we hearing out there about this younger Gen Z generation?
[00:07:31.040] – Speaker 2
Well, the funny thing is that the complaints about young people in the workforce, regardless of generation, are consistent over time. So you hear complaints about Gen Z. They aren’t willing to work hard. They don’t understand what they need to do. They want to focus on work-life balance or wellness. They don’t really want to work hard. They don’t understand the importance of precision in the workplace. They aren’t interested in moving up within the organization. They feel like they should have the corner office two weeks after they start. Their expectations for benefits are way out of whack with reality. All of those kinds of things are fairly consistent complaints, but they’re also… They’ve been consistent as far as I can tell. I found articles back into the 1960s that say all roughly the same thing.
[00:08:28.220] – Speaker 1
Interesting. I’m I’m hearing you say that when I was coming up in my workplace, there were older people saying the same things about my generation similar, right?
[00:08:38.900] – Speaker 2
Absolutely. If you think about the fact that I started doing this work in 1998, that means that the complaints I was hearing were about Gen Xers.
[00:08:47.200] – Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:48.060] – Speaker 2
And they were exactly the same complaints. We see articles, as I said, about baby movers, exactly the same complaints. Wow. It’s a cyclical thing. The younger people are irritating and want more than they should and should sit down and be quiet and do what they’re told. Every single group says that about every new generation coming in.
[00:09:09.760] – Speaker 1
Wow. It’s so interesting. I love that in some ways because we think everything is so different. I think before we try to fix everything, maybe starting with some commonalities, like you even said, sometimes it’s more about entry level in work than it is about generational stuff. I am wondering, though, is there anything from the typical things you’d hear about they’re lazy or they’re different things that we’d hear more stereotypically? Is there anything that we just get wrong, according to research, that actually that’s not really even true?
[00:09:44.500] – Speaker 2
One common thing that people say is that they aren’t willing to put in the hours that older people are. There’s actually good data on this. When you look within an organization and you look at the hours people work, what you find is that people at the same level work roughly the same number of hours. Once you control for level in the organization, there’s no meaningful difference between people of different generations. Because what essentially happens is people at lower levels work fewer hours than people at higher levels. The thing is that people at higher levels tend to be older at the same time. What’s happening is that the people at the higher levels who are looking at the people at lower levels are saying, Well, those people aren’t working as many hours as I am, and they’re younger, and so they must not be doing it because they’re younger. No, they’re not working the same number of hours you are because you’re at a higher level in the organization. What we find is that people at roughly the same level in an organization tend to work similar numbers of hours, with the exception of people at fairly high levels, in which case younger people tend to work more hours.
[00:11:02.360] – Speaker 2
Our guess as to the reason for that is because once you’ve done a job for a while, you’re more efficient at it. When younger people are at high levels, they’ve typically been at those levels for less time, and so they haven’t learned how to do it as efficiently as people who are older, who’ve been in the roles for longer.
[00:11:22.360] – Speaker 1
Is there anything that might be distinct or unique about this Gen Z that you’re seeing even in the workforce?
[00:11:30.640] – Speaker 2
One thing we do know that is actually true, and it’s the first-generational difference, the first real one I’ve seen, as long as I’ve been looking at generational differences, is the issue with anxiety and depression. That is absolutely true. That is a real meaningful difference that has an effect in people’s, obviously in people’s lives in general, and also has an effect in the workforce because it affects people’s absenteeism and it affects turnover, it affects need for medical care and those kinds of things.
[00:12:09.460] – Speaker 1
That is interesting. As we have these conversations, that is a topic that seemingly does come up a fair bit. I have always been curious. There is some anecdotal side to it. We can hear that and feel that more. But as research and information comes out to go, yeah, this generation is seemingly more more anxious and working through mental health stuff than maybe in the past. But yeah, it’s just interesting to know. I’m hearing you say a lot of the things we think are different are more about the stage that people are at in their life and their work. But there are a few differences to unpack along the way. We did some work together on some research on Gen Z staff at Muskoka Woods, and this is our second conversation building off those listeners who are tracking with us some work that Dr. Tim Elmore did in his book, The Future Begins with Z. We’re extending that into other research that is coming out from Muskoka Woods and yourself in partnership with USC, the Marshall School of Business Center for Effective Organizations, CEO, as the tagline there. We partnered in. As we start, just to help, why is Miskoka Woods an unusual or different place to study Gen Z in the context of leadership?
[00:13:33.300] – Speaker 2
One of the really nice things about Muskoka Woods is that Muskoka Woods staff are young, and they also have real responsibility. In a lot of cases, when young people have jobs. The jobs don’t come with a lot of significant responsibility. This is actually something that I heard people talk about when I was there. It was the first time I’d heard this language around it. One of the things that they said to me, multiple independent interviews said to me, was one of the things that they really liked about working at Muskoka Woods was because it was the first time they felt like they had a job that they were doing something that actually mattered. This was new language to me because remember, I’ve been interviewing young people about their work in all sorts of different kinds of jobs around the world for a really long time. This was the first time I heard people talk about what they were doing is mattering in a way that other things didn’t. So I probed. I said, Okay, so you’ve had other jobs, right? And they said, Well, yeah. And I said, So this one matters and those didn’t?
[00:14:45.820] – Speaker 2
And they laughed and said, No, it doesn’t actually matter if I take someone their coffee. I mean, it matters, I guess. They want their coffee, but it doesn’t matter in a really meaningful way. Another said, Yeah, I’ve worked retail jobs, but does it actually matter if I fold the shirt properly? Does it really matter? It really matters if I’m helping these young kids. It really matters if I’m working with them on learning this skill. Those things actually matter. I even asked them about school because I said, You’re at university. Doesn’t that matter? And they said, Well, yeah, I guess, but not the way this matters. So the focus for them, the intense focus they had on the fact that their work, the work they were doing at Muskoka Woods, mattered because of the real responsibility that they had. The way I talk about mattering is I talk about mattering as being bi-directional. People often talk about meaning. Does your work have meaning? And meaning is nice. The students, the young people working at Miskoka would say, Yeah, my university work has meaning to me. But mattering is different because it isn’t just what you are doing.
[00:16:03.680] – Speaker 2
It is your felt sense that what you are doing has an impact on somebody else. And university is important, but it’s unidirectional. It’s the work you’re doing, as opposed to the work that they were doing at Muskoka Woods. They could see the impact they were having on other people. They could see that when they did their job, it had a real effect. It isn’t feedback as in you did well or you didn’t do well, but more they could see the effect of what they did had on other people. The impression I got from them was that seeing that, being able to really understand that what they were doing wasn’t just about the meaning it had for them, but it was about how it mattered to others around them, the work itself actually mattered to others, really had a big impact on their perception of the work and the value of the work and their dedication to the work.
[00:17:05.500] – Speaker 1
You touched on at the end there that the perceived connection to this isn’t just about my well-being, but about other people. It really matters. You talked just that connection to it actually helps them engage and connect to the work. Is there any other information, research on why mattering is an aspect for thriving in workplace? How How would that help them in the job?
[00:17:33.760] – Speaker 2
So it isn’t so much about being part of something that matters because that can get to the meaning aspect. It’s more about what I am doing has an effect on someone else. If I don’t do it, you can extend the logic, if I don’t do it, it will have an effect on someone else, and the effect will be substantive because they’re being relied on. When someone feels like they’re being relied on for something, and it’s something that actually is not random or insignificant, that changes the way they feel about what they need to do.
[00:18:16.320] – Speaker 1
When we got into it and we took a look at a lot of different attitudes and behaviors and whether that’s what success at work looked like, what young people wanted from leaders, how they navigate their time and work, we just dove into a lot of different topics around young people, Gen Z, and how they think about the world around them and work in leadership. We want to dive into a few of these things as we go. One of the things that… There’s a whole bunch of interesting things that come out of the research. One of the things we found that young people know rest is important, but then stay up late. We prioritize, I need me time, I want boundaries. There’s this tension, and I don’t think it’s just young people, it’s probably us as well. There’s this tension between valuing something and knowing it, and then what we actually put into practice. What does this tell us about how young people are balancing this idea of their work and self-care and boundaries, knowing something’s important, but then maybe not lining up, getting enough sleep that actually helps their well-being How do you look at tensions like that?
[00:19:32.480] – Speaker 1
What does that tell us about young people today?
[00:19:34.700] – Speaker 2
Well, it’s an interesting question because everybody does it, right? Yeah. Everyone tries to shave out a little bit more time to do the things that they want to do.
[00:19:45.800] – Speaker 1
I had a friend that used to put their gym bag in the car even when they didn’t go because it just was like, I’m valuing it. It’s important, but it didn’t really change the behavior.
[00:19:55.180] – Speaker 2
Yeah, but it was moving in the right direction, right? It signaled an intent, even if the intent didn’t necessarily convert into actual action, right? So everybody does this. And one of the things I start to wonder is how much of that I’m going to stay up super late because I want to do this other thing that I find really engaging or exciting, and I’ll pay for it tomorrow, but oh, well. Honestly, how much of that is developmental? Because as you get older, You’re less able to do that. Also, as you get older, the value shifts, the amount of joy you get out of what it is in comparison with the pain from doing it.
[00:20:43.500] – Speaker 1
Right. The cost is a little higher.
[00:20:46.260] – Speaker 2
Exactly. If you think of it as an economic equation, when the joy is great and the cost is low, or at least you perceive the cost as being low, you tend more in one direction. When you see the cost as being great and the value isn’t as high, the joy isn’t as high, you make a different decision. One of the things I often wonder is whether or not older people, like us, because we have more experience, we see the costs from a longer term perspective. So we can see the cumulative cost of not getting enough sleep and not being rested. And we understand the effect that has on what people are doing in a way that people with less experience simply don’t have because they have less experience.
[00:21:39.860] – Speaker 1
That’s interesting. And it’s easy to look at that and go, well, could they just figure this out and make the right choices for the things they need? But as you said, maybe we just need summer camp to stop having fun things later at night and change. Because that is one of the beauties of being at camp that you’re around your friends. It’s a unique context, right? The relational joy is high. And so a lot of people have FOMO, and they don’t want to miss out. They want to hang out with people that are an important part of their story in that time. And like you said, they’ll pay for it tomorrow when they’re super tired and can’t function. Yeah.
[00:22:18.900] – Speaker 2
And honestly, the reality is that we probably did exactly the same thing.
[00:22:23.200] – Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
[00:22:23.940] – Speaker 2
A lot of the time, what I see is the complaints about young people are people forgetting what they did. When I go out and I talk to groups, sometimes when I say it’s okay, let’s think back. I have a vague recollection of what I did when I was 20. Do you?
[00:22:42.080] – Speaker 1
It’s us wanting them to have more wisdom than we had at that time.
[00:22:46.020] – Speaker 2
Yeah. There are some things that are really important. There are other things that add up over time, and there are other things that they come and go. I I think making sure people understand now that we have a lot more research now on the importance of adequate rest and health than we had that we didn’t have 30 years ago. But there’s really, really good research now that highlights the importance of rest over time for function, for learning, for physical health, for anxiety, for depression, for all of these things. To me, now that we know more, we can more about, I get that we did it when we were young and we didn’t know any better, but we now have more knowledge. There’s literally better science now about this. It’s actually really important in a way we didn’t realize, which is why we have changed our lives to reflect this. But I think providing some more information is helpful as long as it isn’t just a, you need to go to bed, you’re up too late. It’s more, yeah, this actually has these knock-on effects which are not immediate, but you need to pay attention to.
[00:24:08.840] – Speaker 1
Yeah. I think that’s really interesting because, and again, feel free to interject if I’m a little off on some of this, but I do feel with our world right now, but even in this generation, there are things that they’re paying attention to around health and wellness that maybe we weren’t before because of more and new information. You think about not just fad dieting, but an overall general health to what we’re eating and consuming. My daughter consumes more water, probably in a week than I ever did in high school, other than when I was playing sports. But There’s just this idea of these things that as the information comes out, it does start to shape behavior. I like how you frame that for us at the end. There is more information we have around sleep and self-care and how rest factors into that from a health perspective. That part of our role as adults is to actually make sure that the information is being cascaded down and shared and not in just a lecture. You need to go to bed because it’s better for you. But, hey, here are some of the things that we know about this now and maybe why we’re prioritizing it.
[00:25:19.920] – Speaker 1
I think that’s really good and really helpful. Let’s take a moment to talk about Miskoka Wood CEO Leadership Program. This isn’t just a summer program. It’s a stepping stone for your future. Teenagers can earn a grade 11 high school credit or complete community service hours, all while developing leadership skills in a supportive environment. Our team of passionate staff ensures every CEO has a remarkable and educational experience. Interested in joining this July or August? Find out more at mascokawoods. Com. Jennifer, one of the things as we’ve been working with Gen Z, I’ve come across some writing by David Jaeger in a book called 10 to 25, just about When we look at young people in work, the different types of leaders that are successful working with this generation, he talks about how we can provide high support and still high expectations or high accountability. Because a domineering leader would just tell people what to do and not really worry about how to support them. A caring leader would come alongside and nurture and support without keeping a high level of accountability as far as like, Hey, you can do this, and there are things that you can accomplish.
[00:26:53.640] – Speaker 1
Thinking about young people in the workplace, what can leaders do to support young people well without lowering the bar around accountability?
[00:27:06.040] – Speaker 2
When people are in jobs, when people have expectations, it’s important that they actually fulfill those expectations. I don’t think it does anybody any good if people don’t do what they’re supposed to do for people to just say, Okay, fine, whatever.
[00:27:28.300] – Speaker 1
Yeah.
[00:27:30.920] – Speaker 2
There’s stuff that has to get done, and you have to do it. And oftentimes people aren’t particularly happy with being held accountable for what they’re supposed to be doing. This is actually something I hear a lot from from managers is, well, they don’t want feedback. And I’m a little confused by that statement because, I’m sorry, who wants negative feedback? I have not met a single person who actually actually wants to be told that they didn’t do what they needed to do. Nobody does. But it’s how you learn. It’s how you get better. Recently, I was reading an article and was struck because a young person in a marketing job had apparently turned in marketing copy that had spelling and punctuation errors in it. This is somebody who has a degree. A degree in marketing, it was their first job. They’d graduated university, so they were hired for an adult job to do an adult job as an adult. They handed this in with spelling and punctuation errors. The boss handed it back and said, The next time you hand me something, you hand me marketing copy with spelling and punctuation errors, you’re fired. The person was shocked and horrified by the fact that they were being held accountable for turning in something with spelling and punctuation errors.
[00:28:53.880] – Speaker 2
But you can bet they didn’t hand in anything else with spelling and punctuation errors again.
[00:28:58.340] – Speaker 1
That’s right.
[00:29:00.000] – Speaker 2
Because the reality is that people don’t do work that they think is bad. I mean, there are always a few people who do. We know who those people are. I’m putting those aside, okay? Sure. But most people in jobs are really actually doing what they think is reasonable. If there is a gap between what you need them to do and what they are doing, the only way they will learn to do it the way you need them to do it is for them to be told.
[00:29:29.240] – Speaker 1
Right.
[00:29:30.000] – Speaker 2
And they are necessarily going to be pleased by being told that they did it wrong. But you can’t assume that they understand what you wanted and that they just chose to not do it. If you’ve already explained to them what they were supposed to do when they didn’t do it, completely different conversation. But the first time around, if they hand you something and it isn’t what you needed, you need to actually tell them what they needed to do. Show them the difference between what they gave you and what you expected, because there is no other way for them to learn. It doesn’t do anybody any good to not tell them.
[00:30:10.900] – Speaker 1
I just think of practical examples of if I didn’t really hear well and I’m tone deaf and I’m singing really loud in public, I would probably want somebody to tell me that that’s not sounding exactly the way that I think it is. Who wants to keep doing that? I think feeding feedback that helps us get better. We also had a consultant that came into Miskoka woods once, and we were working through our organization, and we talked about an accountability chart. He said something to me that just stuck with me. He said, Everybody wants to show up and know exactly what’s required of them to be successful. People want to know that. They want to be accountable for it. Usually, if they’re seemingly hiding from accountability, it’s lack of clarity of what it means to be successful or us really showing them the way or feeling like they can’t do it or whatever it is that we can come and help. But we have to continue to hold the bar up on what we’re asking and not let how people feel about getting feedback impact us being able to lead well. I think that’s really wise and helpful.
[00:31:23.840] – Speaker 1
Speaking of leaders in organizations, we asked Gen Z what they expected from a good leader in the workplace and what it was from their minds that was a good leader. Can you tell us a little bit about what you heard from them when you were interviewing them? Is this different than different generations or different time, or is this pretty consistent of what makes a good leader?
[00:31:47.660] – Speaker 2
People are pretty consistent in what they want from leaders. The people I talked to there and the data we have was not really any different. They wanted leaders who were intelligent and dedicated and competent, who lead by example, who are willing to do the unpleasant work they expect others to do, those kinds of things, which are things everybody wants in a leader. Typically, we don’t see major differences across generations in what people want from their boss or their leader. People are pretty consistent in what they want. Now, exactly how that looks may be different, but in general, people people say that these are the things that they want.
[00:32:33.060] – Speaker 1
As young people are getting into the workplace and are aspiring to grow in their own leadership and be successful in the workplace, what are some skills that you know from your work that you’ve seen in the research that we’ve done? What are some skills that Gen Z needs to develop in order to thrive in the workplace and be able to step into leadership roles as they come up?
[00:32:58.900] – Speaker 2
So one of the things One of the things that we see over time, across time, it isn’t just Gen Z, but one of the things we see over time is that when people are moving from school to work, one of the things that happens is they have to shift from being told how to get an A to figuring out how to get an A. When you’re in school, whether it’s secondary school or university, you’re given a rubric, you’re given a syllabus, you’re told exactly what you to do to get the correct number of points to get the grade you want. It’s really very explicit. The reality is that the workplace is never going to be that explicit. People want it to be, young people especially, want it to be that explicit. But it’s just not going to be. It’s never going to be. Learning to figure out what is needed and learn to do 10% more than what is needed, just in case you’re under shooting, learning to ask ask, Okay, I’ve done this. Is this actually the way you wanted it? As opposed to expecting the boss to tell you if you didn’t do it the way they wanted it done.
[00:34:12.060] – Speaker 2
Learning to be proactive about getting stuff done. I still remember a story about people were working. This wasn’t Muskoka Woods, this was somewhere else. People were working as a group, and one of the people had finished their tasks because the group had distributed the tasks. They’d finished their tasks, and they started watching TV on their phone. The boss, who was just a couple of years older than this person, came over and said, What are you doing? The employee said, Well, I’ve finished my tasks, so I’m watching TV on my phone. The boss said, Do you see people Is that what it means to have somebody else around you working? He said, Yeah. The boss said, Yeah, stop doing that and go ask somebody else if you can help.
[00:34:53.140] – Speaker 1
That’s good.
[00:34:54.340] – Speaker 2
But what had happened, it makes perfect sense. This behavior makes absolute perfect sense because this person had just come from university, and what they were used to doing is they were used to having a list of tasks that they had to complete for their grade, and they’d finish them. Why it wouldn’t enter their minds to go ask somebody else to do part of their paper? That wouldn’t make any sense. They just hadn’t acclimated into the new organization. When people move from school to the workplace, they’re changing organizational cultures, essentially. It takes a little bit of time to adjust, and they just need to pay attention to what’s going on around them and understand that things aren’t necessarily going to work the same way and be aware of that.
[00:35:42.040] – Speaker 1
What can we do as leaders or parents, adults that care for the Gen Zs in our lives? How do we help them or encourage them to develop these skills?
[00:35:53.280] – Speaker 2
Let them have more responsibility. Let them do stuff that matters. Require them to do Because I don’t know about you, Chris, but if I could avoid certain tasks, I would happily do so.
[00:36:08.440] – Speaker 1
I could give you a list right now. Yeah. Exactly.
[00:36:12.980] – Speaker 2
Younger people are human just like we are. If there are tasks they can avoid, they’ll probably… Well, I’m sure some won’t, but you’ll try to avoid tasks you don’t want to do. But you know what? That isn’t life. You still have to do tasks you don’t want to do. Taking over those tasks for them, making it easier for them, isn’t necessarily always in their best interest over time. The way I talk about these kinds of things is that it’s like lifting weights. You’re told increase the weight by a small amount. If you lift an extra ounce every day over years, you will be lifting a lot over time. If you just walk in and start trying to lift 50 or 100 or whatever the relevant number of pounds is, that’ll be a real problem. It will be too much of an effort. It will be debilitating. It will feel impossible. It will feel horrible.
[00:37:15.760] – Speaker 1
It hurts a lot the next day. Yeah.
[00:37:17.720] – Speaker 2
Exactly. It hurts a lot the next day. But if you do a little bit all the time and increase the difficulty over time, you’re developing the skills you need so that when you are out there and you’re responsible for all of it yourself, the additional lift isn’t that much.
[00:37:36.600] – Speaker 1
That’s really insightful. I think back, and I’m not trying to set myself up as an exemplar in any way in this, but one of the things we did with our daughter very early in life is she didn’t want to order at restaurants. She’d say, Dad, you order for me. And very early, we said, If you want what you want, you will tell the nice person that’s serving us what you would like, not mom or dad. And She didn’t want to do it. But we said, If you want to eat, you got to order, thing. Over time, because we knew that’s a skill, even at a young age, you need to learn how to talk to adults and ask for things that you need and want, and ask questions if you don’t know what the mac and cheese comes with or something like that. It’s just a little thing. I think that’s an example of what you’re talking about, is getting them to do the hard things over time so that when they’re having consequential conversation, what you order is not super consequential. It might be easy for a parent to say, That’s not a big deal.
[00:38:34.000] – Speaker 1
We can just do it. But over time, it gives her the muscle memory to be able to have conversations with adults about consequential things.
[00:38:42.640] – Speaker 2
Precisely. Absolutely. There’s actually Scott Galloway actually has a lot of work on this. He feels very strongly about this thing, and he talks a lot about it in his podcast as well.
[00:38:56.930] – Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s awesome. In our research, we impact a lot of different things about Gen Z and behaviors and attitudes, what they think about work, things like, like I said earlier, a little bit about wanting to know clearly about what’s in a job and having clarity on the expectations that are in a role at prioritization around boundaries and what that looks like. We talked a little bit about what leaders want. There’s a whole bunch of data. If you could suggest to me at Muskoka Woods or anyone listening, a youth organization, people that work with young people, if we could implement one change or take one thing from this research and put it into practice, what would that be?
[00:39:41.960] – Speaker 2
I would ask if there is a way to get rid of the phones.
[00:39:46.320] – Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
[00:39:47.400] – Speaker 2
Because when there is no way to escape into the phone, there’s a lot more interaction that goes on. The problem is that a lot of the times you can’t. There’s no to get rid of the phones. But that’s what I would do. When you get rid of the phones for a period of time, you can’t have them for the next four hours because we’re going to be doing X. It changes the dynamic in a positive way, in a good way. It’s one less thing for people’s brains to keep track of. It’s one less thing pulling people away from the interactions. Because one of the things we know is how important it is for people to interact with each other. When the phones are present, it is a distraction. Even if you can’t see them, if they’re nearby, they’re still a distraction. What I would say is if you can get rid of the phones, get rid of the phones.
[00:40:43.240] – Speaker 1
I’ve got a lot of parents who are listening who are like, Yes, let’s go.
[00:40:49.200] – Speaker 2
It’s not that easy. You can’t do it all the time. It may be impossible in certain settings, but what I would say is where you can, absolutely do it.
[00:41:00.720] – Speaker 1
Yeah. I think that’s a good reminder. Sometimes we look at places like work camp to do that for us as parents. It can actually start in our own homes as well and taking a look. If it’s great to do that at camp in that environment. We have phased that in for our campers and are moving section by section, and we have Yonder pouches and different things to help navigate cell phone usage at camp. But we also have talked many parents to say it also starts at our own homes, too, and how we navigate cell phone use with the young people that are in our world, even our Gen Z adult kids. How do we model it ourselves as parents and adults? I think that’s… You talked about escaping into your phones, and I think that’s a temptation for so many of us. How can we have some discipline and realize, back to you, get information about what it does to us and learn about some of the trappings that fall out of that and how do we navigate that. I think that’s really wise and a good reminder for me as well as a person.
[00:42:07.600] – Speaker 1
Well, it’s been such a pleasure to have this conversation, and I know I’ve learned so much just working alongside you in this project and other things we’ve talked about together over the years, and I know you have a rich history of working with generations and advocating for young people in the workplace. Even today, helping us learn a little bit more about what are stereotypes and what aren’t and what can we do as parents and leaders to help journey alongside the young people in our life. I’m very appreciative of you and all you bring to the table. I’d love to just as we’re wrapping up, I think sometimes there are parents and caregivers who in the thick of it working through things with our kids. They may have heard you say a few things and they’re like, Oh, but my kid. For those parents and for others in general, maybe just some advice or input or encouragement on what it’s like to come alongside and help raise our kids into resilient adults.
[00:43:10.720] – Speaker 2
What I’d say is everybody’s different. And don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Something is better than nothing. Getting rid of it some of the time is better than getting rid of it none of the time. If you have to choose between doing the good and doing doing nothing because nothing is going to be perfect, do something. Do that.
[00:43:35.980] – Speaker 1
Well, thank you for that, Jennifer. It was a pleasure to have you on the show. Again, thanks for all the great work you’re doing in your partnership with us in this project. I really appreciate it and appreciate your time today.
[00:43:48.200] – Speaker 2
Thanks for having me on, Chris. It’s been great to talk to you.
[00:43:53.320] – Speaker 1
Well, what a fascinating conversation. My thanks to Jennifer Deal for bringing such clarity, honesty, and research back insight into who Generation Z is and what shapes them. If you’d like to explore this study further or listen to part one, you’ll find a summary of the research and key findings, as well as Dr. Tim Elmore’s episode at and at muskokawoods.com. This two-part series has underscored the fact that when we listen to young people and lead them with care, we are helping to shape a generation that’s ready to shape the world. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, make sure to follow or subscribe to Shaping Our World wherever you get your podcast, and share this episode with a parent, educator, coach, or leader who cares about the next generation. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next season.
